Dagger Genesis or Rival

:> Thanks in advance.
:> Happy Trails...
:> Tom Jenkins
:> je...@aol.com

according to bob foote, the designer of the genesis, it is a play/surf
boat. note the front is shallow arch, the rear is shallow v. it is an
asymetrical boat. fun boat. the rival is more entry level, and for smaller
paddlers. the genesis can hold more gear. i paddled the rival once, don't
remember it too well, i paddled the genesis a bit more, and liked it.
would love to have one to play with!!

mark

--
-------...@netcom.com------------------------------------------------
mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_.
po box 6091 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\
longmont, co 80501-2077 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-')
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My suggestion is to paddle both and decide which will challenge you the
most, and buy it. They are both great boats, you can't go wrong.

enjoy!
Cecil

: according to bob foote, the designer of the genesis, it is a play/surf

Mark, how come you're not telling Tom about the most wonderful CAPTION??!

If you're paddling at a higher level, Tom, you may find the Caption more
performance-minded than the Genesis. The Rival, although sharing the
shallow-V of the Genesis, looks more like a baby Caption when you start
comparing the geometry of the hulls. At 180 lb you might prefer the
larger boat if you're paddling big water. I've paddled the Rival as have
a number of people in our informal club. The people that tend to work it
best are 140-160 and of small/medium stature (as are the designers of the
boat).

The Caption loves big water, plays especially well - actually "cavorts"
might be a better word, and spins and turns much like a smaller boat.
Yes, it is heavier than a little boat - there's no ignoring the physics
of a 14' long Royalex craft, but its hull design is pure inspiration.

Regards,
George Kaschner
Member of the South Fork Swim Team - Tandem Caption Division

I also weigh 180, stand 5'11", and recently upgraded to the Genesis
after looking closely at the Rival. I got the Genesis because I'm new
to the sport, an atheletic 57 years old, and plan to do a reasonable
amount of Class II padlling with a local club in addition to some
Class IV streams in Virginia and West VA. The Genesis' longer length
(13'6) vs the Rival's 12'2" should make it easier to keep the boat on
a straight line w/o sacrificing too much turning ability.

I outfitted it with two 48" bags and a Perception saddle. This leaves
about 18" of clear space in front of the saddle for carrying lunch,
extra clothes, space to bail, etc. A more atheletic, younger paddling
buddy who likes doing steep, technical creeks has a Rival and likes it
a lot. So your decision should be based on where you plan to paddle
and how much you want to play; they are both fine boats.

I just got the Genesis; paddled it once on a Class I-II local stream
in 35 degree weather; so I don't speak with a great deal of
experience. But the boat handled well and I'm satisfied with my
purchase; if anything, I was surprised by the sensitivity to minor
corrections. Next spring I plan to do the New River gorge in West VA;
I'm sure the Genesis will handle it beter than the Penobscot 16 I was
using.
-----
----- Simon Tracy _____ EMail _____ jc...@virginia.edu

I paddle a Rival and love it. I'm not a highly experienced paddler, but
literally everyone I know who is and has paddled my boat has fallen in love
with it as well.

If you want to carry any gear for overnight trips, though, you might
look at a larger boat since, at 12'2", the Rival doesn't leave a lot of room
for much more than a day bag. If you want primarily a playboat the Rival would
be a much better choice than the Genesis. Bob Foote was involved in the
design of both boats and I think he had a different market in mind for
each one. With the Rival, so I'm told, he wanted to design a boat that would
work well for a beginner but also be something a more advanced paddler could
appreciate. He's been quoted as saying that the boat was a bit "hotter"
than he intended. My own impression of it is that the primary stability is
somewhat low but that the secondary is rock solid. The boat accelerates
well and does eddy turns almost by itself. At 44lb with ash gunnwales its
also very easy to move on and off the car rack. I *really* like this boat.

--
Paul Bash
pb...@netcom.com

This year I decided to move to a smaller boat to improve my paddling. I
decided to go radical and I bought a Dagger Ocoee. What a great move did
I ever do. I wondered why did I carry that big boat (Encore) for so
long. There is no way that I would move back to bigger boats. Not so
much that it is much nicer to carry (although it is quite appreciated)
but it responds quicker, it helps you to get better and allows you to do
even more stuff. I improved my technique so much within few months,
paddling anything from 12 feet high waves to 18 feet waterfalls. The
boat is faster, respond quicker and hold much less water. This year I
convinced a friend of mine to move from a Genesis to an Ocoee and he was
delighted.

The only two good reasons I would find to buy a Genesis would be if you
would feel very unsteady in your boat, or if you plan to go
canoe-camping with it. But because you already have a canoe collection,
you surely have a good boat for that. On the other end, the Rival is a
very nice boat. It is light, very fast and quick responding (if you do
not trust R-light boats, you can have it in ABS at Dagger). It is user
friendly with its round shines but will ask you a little more than a
Genesis. A smaller boat will demand you to get better, as bigger ones
can allow lousy paddling and big mistakes such as wrong leans, etc.
Depends what you want to do but it is always a matter of guetting used
to it. If the boat really feel like what you are used to, why buy
another one like that? I know several boaters heavier that you who
paddle a Rival and they don't find it too small. It is still a dry boat,
and it is just a matter of learning how to paddle your boat to keep it
dry.

Happy paddling ! :-)

Ghyslaine

: If you want primarily a playboat the Rival would

Good comments, Paul. It reminds me that our local outfitter, South Fork
Custom Canoe, had some pretty remarkable experiences with trimming the
Rival for performance. If you put the saddle as far back as Dagger
suggests the boat is indeed pretty hot. Moving the saddle forward makes
it track much more predictably and slows the turning - a bonus for the
beginner.

Putting an adjustable pedestal-type saddle in the Rival permits the paddler
to have a boat that goes up the learning curve with them. It can mellow
an otherwise too-hot a boat that stunts your skill growth and tune-up the
boat as skills improve.

We used a couple of Rivals in our local Bob Foote solo whitewater clinic
(summer '95). All skill ranges - newbie soloers to Bob himself - found
the Rival to perform at their level.

I still prefer my most wonderful Caption. At 6'4" and 190lb, the Rival
is just too small. The Genesis is a completely different feel and has to
be appreciated for what it is. If you're looking at a larger boat than
the Rival, I'd highly recommend comparing the Genesis and Caption head to
head. The Caption is much more of a playboat in the fashion of the Rival.

My heart goes out to you folks back east, we had a wonderful day on the
South Fork yesterday!

Cheers,
George Kaschner

Brad

I'm 5'10" 180 lbs and I would choose the Rival over the Genesis
anytime.

I'have paddled both boats and I found the genesis to be a very fast
boat but very slow to accelerate. If you like to go eddie hopping in
class II to III this boat is hard to get around. It is a nice boat
for very big water but i sure missed the chimes when I paddled it. I
prefer square boats ( i.e. ocoee or vipers) over rounded ones. The
only advantages than I can see to the Genesis is if you like to go on
long canoe-camping trips (more than 1 week...) or if you like a more
forgiving boat. I would recommend this boat if you are a novice to
intermediate paddler. If you are a strong intermediate paddler or
more you will outgrow this boat quite rapidely.

On the other hand The Rival is pure fun. It is light and accelerate
like a bullet. It is very nervous and dry but more demanding to
paddle than a bigger boat. I like a more quare boat but this is the
most fun rounded boit that I eveer paddled. If your technique is
sloppy and you are a lazy paddler you will find this boat tippy and
hard to control, but if you are an agressive paddler who like to play
this is definitely the boat to choose.

The tendency now in whitewater canoes is to go to smaller boats and
the genesis is very big to today's standards. Even Whitesell is now
making 12 feet boats.

Good luck with your choice and happy paddling ...

Brad

PS: I haven't had the chance to tandem a Caption yet. Maybe this spring.