Hello all,
I am currently doing a thesis on the sustaiunability of polymers in the sports industry and am having problems finding out the exact type of polymer being used in the wavesport project 52, and generally why they choose that exact plastic over any other polycarbonate or polyethylene etc.
On another note as you all know oil is running out and with is is plasic. If it does not completely run out in my life time it is sure to become so expencive that ti will not be affordable for the use in general every day goods. And as we are not generally actually re-cycling plastic but down-cycling plastic.... what do you the people see as being an alternitive for this in the future?? A material whych is strong super plyable to aby shape and respectivally cheep.
Any one with any ideas please reply??
Nice on,
Kepp it real.
Big N Red.

wow, i hadnt really thought about that. Probably will jsut have to go back to fiberglass baots. Either taht or some really light but strong ,etal like titanium with carbon fiber weave around it or soemthigns. i dont know the kind of plastic wavesport uses.

I don't think they'd ever going to titanium that shit is expensive as and the fact that it is alot heavier than water isn't so helpful.

What about a boat made of different materials like the hull mad of wood and resin and the top of reinforced fiberglass or someother fiber around re-bar and chicken wire.
Or what about when you break your boat or need a new one you send your old one back to the manufacturer like you do with your glass bottles and get some money back towards your new boat.

interesting question - also worth remembering that polyester resin (the bog standard, low tech stuff is also (as far as I know) oil based, so we'll need to think differently.

I think boat recycling is the way to go; strip out and re-use all the nuts and bolts, pillars, then take the empty hull to be 'melted down' and re-used. I imagine there will be increasing pressure on manufacturers to develop polymers that can go through this cycle more than once.

Yeah Deffinatly recycle.
Thats all i've got to say, as i have no clue about high carbon poly-fibre band wagon pie.
Sounds good though.
Really good question, raising the awareness.

the little bit that I know.....

cross linked boats can only really be recycled by being chopped up and used as additional fill material in road making (mixed in the concrete and blacktop)

linear plastics (which MOST kayak makers use) are ground up too, but they can be remelted into parts that don't need to be as strong as a kayak hull:
seats, thigh hooks, children's toys, etc They cannot be made into strong kayak hulls because something about the reheating process just makes the plastic a bit weaker

I have seen video of Prijon reusing their leftovers fromthe blowmolding process to make seats and other parts, but highly doubt that a boat hull could be made from entirely recycled plastic, again because of the reheating thing breaking the plastic down a bit.

Many transfer stations here in the US will not take an old kayak, or will charge you a fee to throw it out. That makes sense. We should find a way to recycle it. But, many of these same transfer stations will take a bundle of plastic in their recycling bin. Our kayaks are high density polyethylene (please forgive my spelling). So, if you have a dead boat, you can cut it up into notebook sized rectangles and bring it to the local recycling center.

Here's an even better idea:
Direct recylcing!

If the boat has lots of cracks and holes, then you can practice plastic welding on it. Once you get good enough you'll be able to keep your boats going for longer, and even longer if you decide to keep an extra old boat around to teach your friends how to get started.

This thread was a good idea.

I think all manufacturers should use the blow-mold brocess with HDTP/x-linked so the boats would last a lot longer. These boats literaly last decades and hardly scratch and pretty much never dent or break. In addition, they are lighter. Other companies boats end up in peoples garage because they have moved onto bigger and better and the small sum of money they could recieve for the boat is not worth it for the two times they may paddle the boat. Jackson kayaks are bomber but their process is not nearly as good as Eskimo. Anyway, I think the key to sustainable kayaking is:

-reduce consumption, by using the best materials and process. (HDTP blow mold)
-Re use obselete boats by giving them to summer camps or volunteer groups.
-then Recycle the hull and components.

Never forget the 3 R's

Not to sure how it works but apparently scientists are using biomass to produce oil and polymars.
In the not too distant future your kayak could well be produced from rape seed or something else growing in the feilds you pass on you way to your favourite river.
Its recycle for now though;)

what about using the plastic for other things besides boats? Ive got a freind/instuctor who just got a broken mamba which he is using to make a bunch of hand paddles. Wha about helmets and paddle blades? Could the plastic be melted down and used for lower end plastic paddles and helmets? i realise this isnt putting the plastic directly back to the boat manufacturer, os it doesnt solve the problem of getting new plastic, but hey, at kleast the old wouldnt go to waste.

There are a lot of very good ideas here and new materials being developed all the time (like the fabric that becomes rigid just before impact being used in motocross clothing). The Canadian futurist, Evan Solomon, suggests that the reason we will stop using oil is because of the air and water pollution it causes and that someone will still be pumping it out of the ground 200 years from now (not a direct quote). The real problem for me is still affording to get to the rapids and reducing my environmental footprint. The nearest rapid is 200km plus from my house and I hate the impact and cost. I think you could safely add in mention of transportation involving our sport. Seth and Tyler need to be applauded for \"Oil and Water.\" Their is apparently a guy in California who biked to many of his paddling destinations in the summer of 2006 (I think I read it in Kayak Magazine-Summer '06). Their are also kayakers using motorcyles with trailers to get themselves to the river (one friend gets 51mpg with his Harley). Smart Cars also have an interesting take and you can find that information in David Suzuki's book \"Some Good News For A Change.\" Maybe kayaks do need to change and can be changed, but we need to change how we get to the river too. It is about wisely using the oil we do have and acting in a sustainable manner. As a boater, it is awesome to get fired up about the environment. Nikki Kelly is another example with her concerns about water issues. Sorry for being so wordy.

the problem with the blow molding process is that it cannot make as complex shapes as rotomolding. I applaud the strength of the stuff, thus the inherent longevity. But, this demonstrates why this issue is so complex. People want different things, therefore, to satisfy our appetites, rotomolding must be used (for now) in addition to blow molding

A couple of friends of mine had looked into hemp oil based plastics for making kayaks. It could be done, but would be really really expensive. That's the other problem. How much do you want to pay for your kayak?

Again, I must say that this is a very good topic for discussion. Bravo for starting the thread!

The idea of making hand paddles out of an old boat is a great one, and it's more direct recycling than returning you kayak to a manufacturer, because you are using what is already yours, for a different purpose. It's something my grandfather was very skilled at (more because of the great depression era practicality than any specific environmental concerns)

Other than pressuring the manufacturers to continue looking into this
(and I\"m sure if we do it enough we'll see some pretty good environmental hype marketing)
what else can we do directly?

i dont know this, but id like to think that most kayak manufacturers are fairly environmentally conscious. Even if they are not, rising oil prices will eventually force them to abandon the oil-sucking process being used now. Wha about hydrogen? This doesnt solve the problem of reusing plastic, but the rotomold process apparently takes a lot of oil which will eventually polute the environment. If they can make hydrogen powered cars( they can, they just arent on the market because they arent feasible economically) then a hydrogen -powered boat-making proces should be possible. That might help a bit. Also, what a bout a mass transportation system, specifically for kayakers? i know hwere i live the buss goes out to the put in of a good playrun but they wont allow boats, so kayakers cant make it work. if someone set up a shuttle business where they actually drive you and maybe ten or so others to the put in a of a popular run, it could be like a mass carpool which not only helps economicall, but easses the burden of gas and increases kayaker commraderie. just a thought.

I don't think anyone will be thinking too much about kayaking anymore once oil gets so scarce that for all practical purposes it \"runs out.\" I don't think it will truly run out. I think much more catastrophic events triggered by global warming, an asteroid or some world war for resources such as petrol will cause people to worry about much more important things like staying alive, maybe avoiding roaming gangs and militias (Mad Max future-type).


Realistically, I believe humans will run out of air first. The combination of carbon dioxide and greenhouse gasses and the continuing cutting down of the rainforest is going to be the end of us. The planet will essentially drown, like a paddler in a powerful keeper. As a species, we won't get wiped out from floods earthquakes, or even ice ages. We have made it through these trifles before; those are all gimmies (like in golf). We will die when the air we breathe becomes poison. This is sooner than you may think.

On the bright and hopeful side, there may be a few, which will carry on the torch, fishing and hunting from their kayaks, made of wood and hides. There will be a return to the elementary; water, wood, food, fire, and music. By this moment in the history of humanity, I doubt anyone will care much about Blunting or Air Screws... So then what? So much information everywhere and nowhere at once when hard drives fail and the ghost we call the internet disappears never to be seen again. Books, frescos, and stories shall pass down tales of a \"futuristic passed.\" Like the high watermark on a gorge in the winter, a distant memory of a time which once was... but life finds a way. So long as the seasons turn, life will find a way; maybe not a human life, but a life none the less.

All things are temporary and essentially empty.

whether we run out of air first, some other catastrophy, or whatever, does \"ENVIRONMENTALISM\" have to be the only reason that we recycle the things we have?

I must cite my grandfather's belief (and many who directly felt the effects of both the great depression and world war II) about how recylcling and conservation were not \"extra\" effort, they were the only logical way to do things, and that wasteful practices were what actually took extra time and energy. He would rather fix something, reuse something for a different purpose or give it to a friend when he was finished with it.

This is an interesting thread, but I wonder just how much it has helped the original poster's thesis? Perhaps he can explain a little bit more (if needed) about the scope of the thesis and some kind of definition of \"sustainability\" before any of us get too lost on some tangent.


however, I must comment on the hydrogen powered engines. It's not a cheap enough technology yet (I agree),but there is a further consideration, and that is that the manufacturing of Hydrogen itself creates an incredible amount of pollution. Hydrogen just does not exist in abundence here on earth.

And, as another conundrum, if we just give up, and cease to develop technology, will we have the ability (economically and scientifically) to deal with the problems that we have already created for the future? Do we stop now and just hope, or do we keep on pushing through to the other side (hoping again)?

Well let me first start by thanking all who have replied to the post, it has been a great response and has helped by raising many questions in my head.
So:
I think the biggest problem we face at present is the consumer/cost/quality ratio. Kayak manufacture and indeed business as a hole is not about the environment it is about money so if you want to succeed you need people to want to buy your kayaks.
If the cost is high the consumer won’t buy the product unless it does something the others don’t. If the quality is low the consumer won’t buy the product unless the cost is low.
The idea of using hemp or rapeseed oil or some other type of bio-oil is not the cost although perhaps at present it is also a factor (as with demand this will come down) it is the quality of the product that is the problem.
I think perhaps, it is a case of using the very best materials as one of the lads was talking about with the HDTP/x-linked polymer that is the way forward. AND STOP DOWN-CYCLING. (Stop mixing plastics, SEPARATE)
As for the idea of the world coming to an end or there being a war so bit that all technology is wiped out and we are left back in the hunting and other such elementary ways of life era… I find this hard to imagine as the way humans have been since the beginning of time has been to progress and evolve, that’s not to say we aren’t becoming more environmentally conscious, but I don’t see us ever moving backwards after however million years of moving forwards.
Hydrogen powered engines are being used in the busses in Canada I think, or at least as far as I know but as was mentioned its not any less of a pollutant in the hydrogen extraction process.
On that note did anyone see that article on some 17 year old kid getting getting nuclear fusion in his basement. Whats the story with that? Did he manage to get the cycle to continue and actually manage to finish the process or was it that he managed it at the age of 17.
My thesis is on sustainability of polymers in sports equipment, what there used for at present, where there being over used/ wasted, and the future of polymers ie hemp/ rapeseed etc.
All is very up in the air at the moment so if any of yous have any realy important things ofr facts you think I should be looking at let me know..
Cheers.

I hate to break this to you but the levels of oxygen in the atmosphere are already low, combined with the rate of deforestation and we have a very dangerous equation. Far more dangerous than any other issue facing the earth today. Rainforests once covered 14% of the earth's land surface; now they cover a mere 6% and experts estimate that the last remaining rainforests could be consumed in less than 40 years (www.rain-tree.com/facts.htm). The earth is like a smoker loosing his/her lungs to emphisema. These plants are nessesary to photosynthesise oxygen. We must reduce greenhouse gasses AND stop the cutting down of the rainfores if we don't want the air we breath to turn poisonous. Also, it is possible that a world war will errupt here with the relations between Israel and the United States VS. Iran and Russia. It's getting ugly. We've upgraded our weaponry and now Russia must sell it's old arms in order to afford new ones. So, my purpose in writing this follow up is to say that I beleive that the problems I raised in my last response were valid and not to be dissmised as outside the realm of possibility. Not only is running out of air, possible, it is probable. As far as this World War III, all I can do is pray and try to make a difference one step at a time.

Peace in the Middle-East,
Whitewaterules

Sorry dont get me wrong i realise the problem with air polution is a serious concern and i dont dismiss it at all, i assume that you are in the U.S. and so it is up to you to look at your government or future government and the kyoto agrement. As far as us upgrading our arms i have no idea i live in Ireland so only get to hear about war over there in the news but the last i heard i thought that bushes administration was loosing and it was soon to be at an end or something like that.
Any way that is way off the point and perhaps i can use some of the facts of the airpolution as a shock tackticks.
But again if you know of any new material like some one was talking about earler with the d30 material, forward me the link.

Cheers Mate

Really interesting post why did you pick the wavesport for the topic? should it not be polymers used in kayaks / sporting goods in general? There are big moves in the automotive industry in sustainable plastics not just from organic sources from also from growing polymers based on scientific method, there are guys out there that grow new materials from nothing. Check on google for organic polymers, sustainable plastics, also contact the governing bodies each industry is regulated and there will be a body that will have information on the future of petro chemical polymers. For future materials also look at biodegradable plastics. Really what they need to poduce is carbon negative materials but this does not stop the carbon effect on the distribution of goods, you could have the most environmentally kayak ever produced but you still have to get it to the customer and then that customer wants to paddle it...

Interestingly for me was the post about travelling 200k to the water, I am the same I have a local paddle spot but want to go further afield to get better water, trips to europe and canada but the environmental impact is insane, but what do you do? the barmy army has just flown to Oz to watch cricket when they could have stayed here and watched it on sky. The production of sporting goods is only half the problem unfortunatly participating in sport is another real problem, but, what can you do?

I really try and do my bit, we recycle 70% of our house waste now and look out for degradable packaging walk to the shops, cycle to work when we can and am converting my camper van to run on plant oil and bio fuel, but, this year I still want to go skiing and paddling in europe. So controversially I would say that sport and the participation in, is at a base level envrionmentally unsound, let alone how your kit is made.

Ho humm terrible to have a brain, terrible to use it, even worse to not to use it


Not sure if that helps you in anyway at all! Good luck with it, once marked can you post it somewhere would like to have a read.

I have chosen the project 52 as a case study as it is the kayak i paddle... no othe reason than it is accessableto me. My thesis is on sustainability of sporting equipment and as such it is general but have chosen 5 different areas to researsh and uxe as csse studies. the kayak, the climbing rope, the peli case, the shell jacket and the backpack... roughly. So technically i could have used any boat.
Loved the info on people growing organic polymers cheers.
Very valid point remade about the distance needed to travel to and from the place of adventure, again deffo worth pointing out, but my thesis is quite short only 8-10 thousand words so it will be consise.
Deffinatly will post a finished draught somewhere for all to read when i am finished... end if Jan is the date so ill keep all posted..

Here we go everyone has to blame the smoker, but I am quieting!! LOL

You got me a little lost, relation between US, Russia and Iran. This has been going on for years. Some one is always going to sell arms and others are going to build bigger better ones to use. A smart thing for the US to do is get their noise out of “helping” messing up other countries and focus on the US. Make US number 1 for a clean earth act. If we used half of what has been spent on war we would have one of the best “clean” place to live. Tell the other countries to try to keep it clean and you are on your own. Let them blow the hell out of there selves. You try to move on the US and we will fawk you up, fast in and out. You clean up the mess!
I might be pissing some other people and there countries off and in no shape or form am I trying to do that. I liked Bush when he came into office but that only lasted a month for me, when my president runs to Daddy for help, makes you think!

Whats the saying, you cant love someone else if you cant love yourself, I think a lot of countries should use that saying. Lets help everyone else and we drive by the guy missing his legs sitting at a stop light.

No more of that!

Green house gas and forest depletion. Millions of years are behind the change it is going to happen one way or the other. We are just speeding things up to too fast. Carbon monoxide is what we has humans put out, some times more ways then one. Cars have high levels has well. Now the best of all, you will like this if you never heard it is recycling in itself. A lot comes out when processing is taking place. You are hurting one and helping the other.
The forest is mother earths filter, just like the one in your fish tank. We are putting out carbons so why not create a bigger filter! Your 5 gallon filter wont do a damn thing when in a 50 gallon tank. There are so many options for alternatives for every thing we have wasted. We all now that ! If I was rich, im far from it. But say I was making money oil, I know its going to be gone soon so I should get as much as I can get before its gone. So me the money. Think really hard about that, 90% of you would do the same. When there is none left you would have the money to buy the other new stuff.

I got to look in to the facts of www.rain-tree.com/facts, that seems really low. 6% that’s like taking every tree in the world and fitting on a state the size of Texas. Anyone know the squire mileage of earth? I need to look that up.

Another thing, if we dug up all the power lines and phone lines and every thing else we put in the ground with in the last 100 years we would have enough plastic and cooper to stop most production thats going on.
Every thing is wireless now.!!!!!!

There was a protest in the 30rd's, remember from school. Too many bong hits those years so a little foggy, protest 30rd's not to put anything of that nature in the ground. out of sight out of mind. there is wire where companys have kept in the ground and have replaced it. and never took it out, reason is that it will keep a tunnel there for later use. they wont have to tunnel again.

yeah, except we would still need powerlines because, unfortunaltey, energy still isnt wireless. Bummer

The answer to all the energy problems is sustained hydrogen fusion, you may have head that recently europian countries have invested billions in developing a fusion reactor, if they can achieve this, the end of using oils in production of electricity is coming up. Also if we used more nuclear fission reactors use of oils wil drop immensley. a kilo of uranium produces around a million times more energy in jouls than burning fossil fuels. At present rate fossil fuels will run out long befor oxygen runs out, we desperatly need the worlds forrests to expand not to be cut down.
Unfortunatly the worlds biggest problem is the U.S.A, they are the biggest polluter and producer of green house gasses per person than any other country, by far. Yet they still refuse to do anything about it, whilst other countries are trying to cut down there carbon emmisions the US care more about the slight dint in their economy than the damage they are causing. Not to mention the fact that they think they can police the world, threatning to drop nukes on small countries who \"might\" have enriched uranium or plutonium etc. yet they are the only nation to have actually dropped a nuclear bomb on people not once but twice! quite sickening. this is not intended to offend any1 but the US government.

Peace

Yeah, well, give us another year about or so and then hopefully we will be able to work on that. the current administration is prcticing the ignore-and-it-will-go-away policy which, as evidenced by the forum post above, aint working so great.

Things that make you go, \"Hmmm...?\"

Unfortunatly the worlds biggest problem is the U.S.A, they are the biggest polluter and producer of green house gasses per person than any other country, by far

Is that still true? I thought that China and India are the worst poluters and caused the most environmental damage, the per person rule is a misnomer per head they are the worst but that could be easily solved if they all used diesel and switched to bio fuel, still, guess the daddys boy in charge would have something to say about that.

Interesting story for converting your 5.2 litre diesel pick up
www.patagonia.com/bendtobaja

China recently had a shock when they changed the direction of a river to help industry and found it had an envronmental impact, imagine that, must have been a shock for em

www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2006-03/13/content_533451.htm

The problem is most of the statistics are eronous, you can pressure somwhere like the states with lobbying and their own citizens can have a pop but somewhere like India and China, Cambodia we rely entirly on what they say is the current state of pollutants.

Anyway I could go on but won't back to paddling our lovely crystal clear river thames

Oh anyone read zodiac by neal stephenson, great book and author if you are looking for your next read.