For the past few months I've been experiencing a pain in my right elbow. It is pretty painful during paddling and even afterwards. It is especially sore if I've been playboating. If I paddle my K1, which is only forward strokes (and using a wing paddle) it's not so bad at all.

I am not very clued up on the human body, can somebody possibly tell me what this is. Is it tennis elbow? Maybe you can help Boe?

Someone told me that is it caused by an imbalance on the upper arm. Biceps and triceps, one of them getting too strong. Is that right? I was told to stretch my biceps as this will help a lot. So far I've tried stretching my biceps and it has helped with the pain already. Feeling much better. Was that good advice? Any help from someone who knows would be greatly appreciated.

Shot..

AdrianTregoning wrote:

Someone told me that is it caused by an imbalance on the upper arm. Biceps and triceps, one of them getting too strong. Is that right? I was told to stretch my biceps as this will help a lot. So far I've tried stretching my biceps and it has helped with the pain already. Feeling much better. Was that good advice?

If it helps it's a good advice. I think it's a fair guess that the tight bicep tendon is causing some trouble as you are more likely to do more work with your bicep playboating than just forward padding. Most like the tendons in the elbow join are just overloaded and need some rest (no paddling for you im afraid, haha).

Keep up the strecthing and maybe some soft tissue work in form of cold/hot -treatment or maybe a massage.

Ades, it's probably good ol' Tennis Elbow, its pretty common for our paddling breed.

Hmmm, my girlfriend reckons it is... Hope it goes away.

(BTW, keen for Swaziland this weekend? Probably hitting the upper Usutu sections for some good creeking. 5 of us so far. Border post closes at 22:00)

Any other advice?

I used to have that pain actually. It was a pain around the elbow and up the muscles a little. It was excruciating after a few days of paddling. I used to load up advil after and sometimes that still did nothing. eventually it went away for me. I haven't had it in over a year. I'm sorry my comment is so unhelpful. the only thing that made it better for me was to choose my strokes wisely when running a river, as in no playboating. Maybe try to condition your self. Shorter paddle trips may help. Hope it improves!!

Some quick qestions for you:
What are you feeling?
Where are you feeling it?
What makes it better?
What makes it worse?
When do you experience the pain most often?
When do you not experience the pain?
Have you injured your neck, shoulder, elbow or wrist before?
On a scale of 1-10, 10 being the worst pain possible how would you rate your pain?
Have you had this pain before?
How long have you had this pain for?
Can you reproduce the pain with any arm motions? If so what?
Any family history of arthritis, diabetese, cancer, or any other disease?
What motions do you do differently when you playboat as opposed to other kayaking? Do you use the same paddle when you playboat or a different one?
How often do you paddle?
Have you been paddling more than usual or are there any other changes in your daily activity maybe not related to kayaking (at work or new other sports or new workout routine)? Tat last question applies even to changing something in thel last three weeks or so?

Sorry about all the questions I will probably have some more for you once you answer these. Take your time answering and be as specific as you can.

Some quick qestions for you:
What are you feeling?

Mostly a constant pain, on the joint. Feels like I need to stretch and extend my arm contantly.

Where are you feeling it?

Hurts if I push down on the elbow. (on the tip?)

What makes it better?

The stretching does help and if I don't paddle for more than a week, that also helps.

What makes it worse?

Lots of playboating. I cartwheel better and more often on the right but do try to wheel to the left as much as possible to counter act it.

When do you experience the pain most often?

During paddling and for days afterwards.

When do you not experience the pain?

After I haven't paddled for much more than a week.

Have you injured your neck, shoulder, elbow or wrist before?

Small shoulder injury once. Nothing serious. Just took it easy and stretched. Went away after a good couple of months.
Neck was injured in a car accident. Compressed the 3rd vertebrae. (Actually a good thing because the money I got from a third party claim about 2 years later was enough for me to start kayaking - every cloud has a silver lining they say)

On a scale of 1-10, 10 being the worst pain possible how would you rate your pain?

Maybe a 2 or 3. I do notice it throughout the day.

Have you had this pain before?

No.
How long have you had this pain for?

Er, for maybe 4 months already.

Can you reproduce the pain with any arm motions? If so what?

Kind of. It is there regardless of what position my arm is in. If I close my arm up, like bring my hand to my chest and squeeze, that makes the pain worse.

Any family history of arthritis, diabetese, cancer, or any other disease?

Er, I don't think so. Maybe arthritis. I am allergic to all sugars, although not diabetic. No history of diabetics.

What motions do you do differently when you playboat as opposed to other kayaking? Do you use the same paddle when you playboat or a different one?

Well, paddling a K1 is using a wing paddle and the stroke is different. Arms are not bent very much throughout the stroke. I believe my technique to be pretty sound, maybe just paddling to much.

How often do you paddle?

Used to be about 5 to 7 days a week. Now it's less. In the December period I was paddling about 1 to 3 hours everyday for almost 3 weeks.

Have you been paddling more than usual or are there any other changes in your daily activity maybe not related to kayaking (at work or new

other sports or new workout routine)? Tat last question applies even to changing something in thel last three weeks or so?

Not really no. Had the pain for about 4 months already.

Tell me about the first time you felt the pain...
Also, describe the pain... the actual pain itself, not what causes it.

When a person participates in a sport to the exception of all others there is a good chance that a muscle imbalance will happen. I lifts weights to work my \"non-paddling\" muscles. I know that you use all of the muscles but you use some more than others.

Whitewaterules wrote:

Tell me about the first time you felt the pain...
Also, describe the pain... the actual pain itself, not what causes it.

It's pretty difficult for me to describe the pain. Is pain not pain? It's almost like muscle pain, but not on any muscle, on the joint itself. If I flex my arm then it hurts directly after exercise. I feel the need the extend my arm often. Not a stinging pain at all. No burning. No throbbing.Fairly constant. Made worse when I pick something up. I don't think it's serious or painful but I am conscious of it fairly often

I paddled more than 30 km of whitewater on saturday and apart from a little muslce pain my elbow feels fine. No playboating, creeking.

Tough to explain in writing but visualise this. I'm standing facing you. I take my right arm and hold it so my right hand is at my left hand side of my body (waist) and my right forearm is parallel to the ground. Now putting my left arm parallel to my right, I push a finger into my elbow around from the right. Kind of on my upper arm elbow side. It hurts there. I can feel some stringy thing over the elbow there. Maybe a tendon? It hurts a little.

I feel no pain on the inside part of the elbow. The stretches seem to have helped a little. The pain did become much better after I changed to a neutral bent shaft and enabled me to paddle even longer. But within a few playboating sessions at the end of last year it was back.

I used to have similar pains. It was frustrating. I went to a bent shaft paddle. That helped a bit. Also started working on what my brother calls the \"beach muscles\", my biceps and pecs. Seems that boaters are a rare breed who actually need to work on these for some balance in muscle mass (whereas most meatheads go into the gym and that's all they work on)

Tendonitis. that's the tennis elbow thing, and likely you are dealing with that,but the question is to what degree, and is it the only thing.

A word of caution about your shoulder. You could have a reporting pain almost anywhere along your bicep as a result of shoulder injury.
How do your shoulder blades feel when you have this elbow pain?

See a physiotherapist!

ScottBarnes wrote:

I used to have similar pains. It was frustrating. I went to a bent shaft paddle. That helped a bit. Also started working on what my brother calls the \"beach muscles\", my biceps and pecs. Seems that boaters are a rare breed who actually need to work on these for some balance in muscle mass (whereas most meatheads go into the gym and that's all they work on)

Tendonitis. that's the tennis elbow thing, and likely you are dealing with that,but the question is to what degree, and is it the only thing.

A word of caution about your shoulder. You could have a reporting pain almost anywhere along your bicep as a result of shoulder injury.
How do your shoulder blades feel when you have this elbow pain?

My biceps are pretty decent and my pecs are bigger than most people I know hehe

I have zero shoulder pain... Does the bicep or tricep work more during paddling?

kernel wrote:

See a physiotherapist!

I don't enjoy visiting any hospitals, doctors, physio's, OT's, dentist, et. Just never go. In fact I haven't been to the dentist since just before I left school. HAHA, thats about 8 years now and I'm still hundreds. Seen enough of loved ones suffering in hospital. The whole smell makes me sick...

I definatley agree you should see a Doctor, but I'd recomend an D.O. doctor over an M.D. D.O.'s take all the coursed of an M.D. plus more courses on orthopedic evaluation and manipulation. D.O.'s would be much better at giving you advice.

To answer your question, your biceps actualy gets plenty of use in kayaking. Where do you think the pulling motion comes from:lol: No need to work them at the gym. Tricepts do need a bit of attention though along with pecs. All you really need for kayaking is push-ups, pull-ups, dips, sit-ups, back extensions, and hamstring stretching. These are functional exersises that use opposin muscle groups at the same time. This keeps the body balanced and coordinated between opposing muscle groups. Push-ups, pull-ups, and dips are more functional than silly muscle isolating excersises. No need for dumbels etc... Also these excersises will dramaticaly improve paddling performance as they are more useful for muscular endurance and strength such as apply to kayaking.



Cheers,
Whitewaterules

AdrianTregoning wrote:

I don't enjoy visiting any hospitals, doctors, physio's, OT's, dentist, et. Just never go. In fact I haven't been to the dentist since just before I left school. HAHA, thats about 8 years now and I'm still hundreds. Seen enough of loved ones suffering in hospital. The whole smell makes me sick...

I'm the same, dude. But I thought I knew best about my shoulder and ended up damaging it to the point where surgery was required. With a physio they'd probably be able to diagnose your problem and give you some appropriate exercises to fix it.

Whitewaterules wrote:

To answer your question, your biceps actualy gets plenty of use in kayaking. Where do you think the pulling motion comes from:lol: No need to work them at the gym. Tricepts do need a bit of attention though along with pecs. Cheers,
Whitewaterules

Funny. In my personal experience, my triceps, without any gym or extra work were overdeveloped by alot compared to my bicep. If you do a proper racing stroke, then your biceps are not engaged all that much except to lift the padle out of the water. Perhaps it's my training with hours of stroke analysis, working with video feedback, coaching, and consulting experts in kinsethesiology, but I have a different view than many about the mechanics of paddling strokes.

Also, both the doctor and physical therapists (which all of this difference of opinion should just encourage you more to go visit to eliminate speculation) encouraged me to work around the front third of the shoulder head, which involved lots of bicep and chest work. It may seem counter intuitive from a structural and tension/stress perspective, but my problem was a mass inbalance. My back, triceps, rear-third and top of the shoulder were huge compared to the front of the shoulder and bicep.

All I can do is share my personal experience. Others do not have the exact same experience, and that is why a message board is nice to get some kind of vague idea of what someone is looking at, but ultimately it's not a good source of medicine (which if you're injured, is what you need).

Go see some sort of medical person. Here in the U.S. many of us have to see our general practitioner doctor first, then he/she would recommend a specialist to visit for a specific problem like this one.

I had the same problem for a awhile. I'm no medical expert, but I heard everything from tennis elbow tendonitis. (of course, for all I know those two might the same thing) Either way, all I did was make sure that I was sufficiently hydrated before I went boating, and I was fine. I also take glucosamine every day, which is supposed to aid in joint movement. Mine was to the point where at time I couldn't even hold a paddle.

If you're like me and not paddling is simply not an option, I would try the glucosamine and staying hydrated.

Good luck

ScotBarnes,
You're absolutley right!!! I personaly am very aware of my form while paddling and I also notice my triceps to be quite well developed. Unfortunatley I would guess from experience, that a very small portion of the paddling comunity has proper form.


This is an excerpt from an old article I wrote:
I see paddlers of all levels overuse their arms when paddling. Power should primarily come from rotation at the trunk; this helps generate more torque with less effort. Maintain the shape of a box with the paddle and arms out in front and at shoulder level. Do not rock back and forth to generate power. Often paddlers will rock their trunk back and forth while trying to generate a burst of speed, doing this creates turbulence around hull and therefore wastes energy. Torso ROTATION allows a paddler to reach farther forward during the catch phase of the forward stroke. Indirectly, correct paddling form may help prevent shoulder injury such as strains, sprains, dislocations, and subluxation. When the torso is not properly engaged to generate power, the arms do more work and become fatigued at a faster rate. This fatigue (especially of the Rotator Cuff musculature) may contribute to shoulder instability and therfore injury.

Link to my article:
paddling.about.com/od/howtopaddletutoria...erms=Kayaking+skills

Finally... Push-ups with hands in various positions would be perfect for your situation. Especially if done on closed fists and at various positions of width and at various points along the length of your body.

CHEERS,
Whitewaterules

hmmm, i don't like pushups etc. but what i do sometimes is paddle upstream, backwards, for maybe 20 minutes. i'm not sure about the technical details, but it sure feels like i'm using muscles that way that are obviously underdeveloped

Jeroen,

You should get a Total Gym. Chuck Norris (who is the toughest dude on the planet) works out on one and swears by it.

I paddle backwards in the flats between whitewater sections, in 30-second sets. That helps me alot. I had two winters where I really got into weight training and thought I was getting pretty strong. I could do lots of weight in the gym, but when I got on the water I found out that I was a total wimp when it came to paddling backwards. It's much harder than it sounds, and is more specific to the muscles you use in kayaking. So now, I make sure I paddle backwards at least a little bit every time I go out.

Now I'm going to workout on my Total Gym.

In terms of kayaking, what are the muscles that do not get as developed. I don't lift weights very often. I'll usually do a set after rock climbing on day per week. Judging by my own physic, I would guess that biceps don't get a lot of work when paddling. When I lift, I use only freeweights in order to keep a lot of the stabilizing muscles strong. Does anyone have any tips?

nathan wrote:

In terms of kayaking, what are the muscles that do not get as developed. I don't lift weights very often. I'll usually do a set after rock climbing on day per week. Judging by my own physic, I would guess that biceps don't get a lot of work when paddling. When I lift, I use only freeweights in order to keep a lot of the stabilizing muscles strong. Does anyone have any tips?

The ultimate shoulder workout:
A GREAT way of realy working on stabilizing musculature of the shoulder complex is to do push ups with a football (soccer ball), basketball, etc... under each hand. This REALLY works the shoulder complex in both torque and muscular coordination. An other variation is, do the same but with two different sized balls. Make sure you switch the balls every other set if you are using different sized balls.

Another advanced variation is to use a ball under each hand AND one larger ball inder your feet. Now you will have no direct points of contact with the ground. This is very hard to do, it took me a while to learn this one. Especially with the last advanced variation, you will see how important it is to have COORDINATED and opposing muscle groups.

Paddling backwards as mentioned by others is also good. Over all push-ups, pull-ups palms facing away, pull-ups palms towards you, sit-ups, and dips. That's about all you need. Do 5 sets, three times a day, to the point of exhaustion on each set. Give yourself two consecutive days off a week. Let me know how it goes.

Consult a physician before trying these movements, if you have or have had shoulder, neck, back problems, or arthritis or back problems run in your family history.

Good luck,
Whitewaterules

I've been practising back paddling for more than a year now. When I started I was amazed as to how tough on the body it was. I also practise reverse ferry glides, S-turn, C-strokes (bow draws etc)

Very good practise. My triceps are also very well developed but they started long ago when I used to cycle. Not cycling anymore. Our roads are pretty dangerous. People getting flattened all the time, or even bicycle jacked!

The rotation of the trunk during paddling is vital and most people do NOT do this. They use their arms waaay too much. Paddling a K1 type of boat with a wing paddle will teach you proper trunk rotation. Raising the seat of the boat allows one to rotate easier. Check out any sprint boater boats. Their seats are very high, making them even more unstable. I raise the seat on all my boats. I feel I can deliver more power to the blades in this way.

Well it's pretty weird. Ever since I've been doing those stretch exercises on my biceps my elbow pain has gone. Doesn't feel like it's there anymore.

Against advice I tried some bicep curls with some 10kg dumbells at home yesterday evening (only size I have). Did some nice slow sets and guess what. No elbow pain.

Boe, I held the weight with my elbow bent at 90 degrees and I didn't feel any pain when I held the weight with my palm towards my stomach, the ground or up. I'm pretty stoked about that.

I took it easy for the last few days, except the weekend, and so far so good. I guess time will tell whether it returns.

Out of interest, my mother has been having elbow pain for quite some time. It had been diagnosed as tennis elbow by a doctor and she had several injections from some other woman (chiro? I think it was) That provided temporary relief. I told her about the stretches and she says it has helped for sure.

Had to dig up this old thread...

So here's the deal. Been taking it easy on booze and haven't touched a single brandy, rum or cane since 1 January this year (quite a feat! and better for the body and brain),but having the odd beer and on a kayaking weekend, many beers and maybe some Port. Elbow was still sore for ages and then lately it's been fine. Not had any beers at home because I ran out and have been to lazy to hit the shops. Then last night I had 6 beers and this morning my elbow is killing me! Conclusion --> It must be gout. hehehehe, yup, sure of it. So no more beers for little old me. NOOOOOOOOOOO. Oh well, that's life

Over, and finally out,
Adrian

Lies, Adrian! I don't believe for one second that you'll give up the beer for good. You can live a perfectly healthy drinking lifestyle with Gout, just watch when you drink and get your hands on some Caltracine tablets. You're a South African kayaker, don't let us down:cursing:

Well, since you're going to Scandinavia, it's not a bad idea to quit drinking already, you're not going to be able to afford a beer there anyway

But since you're coming with us to the Zam (right? ), you should pick up drinking again asap after your return!

And on the contrary: when I have a pain somewhere I find alcohol the right medicine!

Hmmm pretty tempting Marten. Have to see what happens. The Zam is calling me If my old company gives me an excellent offer, then I won't go. Otherwise, I'll be back half way through July. Then I need to hang on at my current job until end of October and could then have a huge holiday till next year So far, got enough cash to survive for a while with no money.

I think I'll abstain from booze for a while. I'll maybe try those tablets Scotty. South African tradition in kayaking, drink, drink, drink, dirnk, dink..., hic/. geesh, pretty seriash, hic.

zam... ahhh

i always find with injuries of the like thatif you stop doing what makes it hurt for a while it tends to go away. simple but effective