hi,

i would like to involve some/all of the manufacturers (if they are online and see this) about a few questions i have:

1. i guess it takes a lot of plastics (oil) to make boats.?
2. the heating process and rotating also takes a lot of energy resources?
3. is there any possibility (or has it been done already) to recycle boats and manufacture new ones?

a. i heard there are problems in strength and durability while recycling
could this not be done by manufacturing all sit on tops and other less abused kayaktypes from recycled materials?

b. is it possible to mix at least a percentage of recycled plastic granulates into boats?

4. are there any strategies of any manufacturer aiming for this?
5. can't at least the seat and similar less exposed areas be made out of recycled plastic.
6. can/could i return my abused/broken boat to a manufacturer/facility to recycle it?
7. according to a manufacturer, there is not enough power in the kayakindustry to make the chemical giants move to create something new for the kayaking market..true or not...?
8. instead of demonstrating to stop rivers from being damed (as we are at the moment burning a lot of energy resources for ourselves), would there be a chance to demonstrate for a plastic made of recycled materials..?
9. could the manufacturers be moved to take back boats and recycle them or would they be willing to open up a joint facility to do this?
10. by seeing the industry growing that big over some years (not only whitewater but also sit on tops etc) isn't there a responsibility towards environment?



p.s sorry for saying plastic but it seems to be more convinient.

My boat is what I use to go through some very challenging and dangerous places. I need my boat to take the punishment I dish out, and I'm unwilling to compromise on this.

If they can make a recycled boat that's just as strong and safe as the boats they make today, I'd consider paying a premium for that. ...tho I might be able to do more for the environment with those dollars by putting solar panels on my roof, or putting the money away to purchase a hybrid or fuel cell vehicle- after all, I consume electricity and fuel ongoingly, whereas a boat is a one-time consumption deal.

Chris

don't worry, i wouldn't want to jeopardize the stability of the boat/hull.

i also doubt that a boat (nowadays) is a one time purchase (the manufacturers wouldn't be happy about this at all)..

all i am asking is to find a way (if there is one) to make boats more environmental friendly.

i don't want to compare this to vehicles (by being able to buy hybrids they are already giving us options).

oviously are there many other ways to stop wasting resources but definately this shouldn't mean to stop looking for more...

You're missing a KEY option:

I DO Care, but recycled plastic isn't strong enough. SO one option would be I"m willing to give up some strength to save the environment,

and the counter one:

I'm NOT willing to give up some strength to save the environment.


Recycled is a cool idea, but its simply NOT possible to make a kayak from recycled plastic, and have kayakers treat their boats like they currently do.


Corran

Kristine is now setting up a program where every Jackson Kayak that is beyond use (we are too young for that yet, except when Clay loses them off of his truck and they get dragged under a van for a kilometer.) we will take them back and grind them up and recyle them (cross-link makes a good filller for asphalt roads)

Recyled material is used in rotomolded seats, thigh braces, etc. It is good for non-structural parts (like all linear in my opinion)


EJ

I would love to make boats out of a recycled material. It sucks that we are supposedly a enviormental minded group of people and we use alot of plastic and drive our big suvs everywhere.

Recycled materials are not durable nor strong enough for our use. Kayakers treat their kayaks like crap. If folks took a little care of their boats they would last a long time and many people could use the boat for years. Ever thrown your bike off the top of your car? Ever drag yourself through a line only because your didn't want to get out of your boat?

Our industry is way too small to force any kind of action with a plastic co.

Atleast in the winter we don't have to heat the plant because the ovens are so damn hot when you open them up we can still run around in shorts and t-shirts.

Cross Link is worse, in production and final material, for the people molding the boats and the enviorment.

Material is one of the things that all companys are trying to figure out. Who ever gets it done first is going to be psyched.

If you get your Liquidlogic boat to us we will recycle it. The reason we only do our boats is because we know what is in our boats and know how to use it, and we can't handle all boats coming our way. We regrind any boats that we have and they are reused in other products.

Shane
Liquidlogic

again, no one wants to compromise the safety of his creekboat...neither do i.

i mainly go multi day expeditions and i definately choose the material according to
1. duaribility
2. durability
3. durability
4. performance

then there's a lot of other things and somewhere towards the end there's environment.

i use SUV's myself (even while i mostly walk in nepal), fly around the planet to find a good river and abuse boats on a frequent basis. not to mention, that my material (not all but most) which i use as manufacturer (polyester) isn't anything else but plastic.

but here most of it is already recycled. and now, the recycled gets recycled again...all an effort (not from me) but from groups trying to change the ways....also there where a lot of naysayers because of durability etc.,


but back to the kayaking..

all i wanted to know is if there's someone (or all the industry in an effort) this way to find out and maybe get the chem. manfacturers to mix something to try....see if there's a way...i know..everyone's busy to make the buck and then have the time to huck...

as i did look into a bit of boats and walked a plant and saw the buckets of granulates, i just wondered if it would hurt that much to mix a bit of other shredded material in there.

maybe polyesterfibers...;)or just shredded waterbottels. that the whole thing has a negative impact on durability and strength is clear.

obviously do i also not have the chemical knowledge to see what would all happen but,.

talking crosslinked, somewhere i heard/read that the material has some toxic radiation during the first few weeks of manufacturing..TRUE?


i didn't want to focus the discussion on the creek boats only (even while i only do creeking myself).

EJ mentioned that he's already using recycled plastic and LL seems to be taking boats back. that's already more then i thought would happen at the moment anyway.

so how strong will they be
if ther solid and about the same price (or cheaper) then u will get people

The difference in durability is huge. When you use recycled the stiffness, abrasion resistance, and impact resistance, are all comprimised.

I would love to use another material. LIke I said before kayaking is such a small part of the industry that we pretty much take what we get. They do like us because we test things hard and like to try new things but they also know how price restrictions. They are talking about materials that may work but we are talking boats that cost 3 times as much. Basically more than glass boats. Which is in the 2000, 3000 dollar range. Lets not get started on fibreglass resin and all that stuff.

Jackson Kayaks may use some recycled in his boat parts, I don't think so, but I guarentee he doesn't use recycled material to make boats. He did say you could recycle it for road fill but I don't know if that is being done.

Cross link is horrible to mold. The gases put out by the boat while molding have created problems for molders as well as anyone in the building in a couple different companies.

Wavesport used to use crosslink. Molders actually had issues with skin rashes and even peeling. One office worker had to leave because of migraines and then had none recure after leaving the company.

Dagger used crosslink and never turned back.

Perception used crosslink and never turned back.

We sampled crosslink and I left the building because the stench was so bad. I was sure it was bad news after that.

I do know that I have a trailer full of boats that is going up to our plant to be reground reused for other things in the next month. Probably 30 boats.

I also know that we are trying to push it on to the next thing but that takes large large bucks. Way bigger than us right now.
Shane

so asmuch as i understood,

LL and EJ are the only ones out there looking for recycling the material (even if it only means into the seats or similar)...

i haven't had the chance to contact others (dagger/WS or sim) but i fear it is like everywhere, as long as we/you/i are just after the buck we wont be looking for the environment...

EJ mentioned the patagucci guys book...guess it is one of the few exemptions where a 'hippy' stays stubborn and pushes on through..

it would be great if there could be understanding (and not only competition) in the industry to then use the power of the buyers comunity to get the manufacturers moving into the direction of ecofriendly plastics...