Hi.

As you probably understood when reading the title, I'm looking for a kayak. I'm basically looking for a boat with which you can have fun on every little river, but which doesn't stop me from trying out bigger streams. So that would be some sort of combination between a playboat and a riverrunner. Do those combinations work, or aren't they good for anything? I don't think they're very good for aerials, but they should be allright for cartwheels and stuff, won't they?
What might help me a little is that I'm fairly large, and every boat for me is going to be a little longer than for smaller people, being faster and a better riverrunner. I've been paddling since september last year, so I haven't got a lot of skill yet, but I should be able to get down class 3 white water alive. The boats I've been in so far are a T-canyon (a huge massive boat), a prion chopper (just a normal huge boat) and a Rainbow DNA, basically a river runner for smaller people. With me, it tends to disappear, as it does in my avatar, that's not really wild water there...
So that means I've got awfull little reference and will have to do some good testing before deciding on anything. Now, to make it even more difficult, I'm a student, I'dd like a second hand kayak best, which means it should be a relatively old and common model. I live in the Netherlands, so models not imported into Europe are out of the question, unless you have one you're trying to sell.
I'm about 1.91m long (just over 6 foot I think), and I weight in at about a 100 kg (220 pounds), perhaps a little more, especially with gear, so if I want to move on to bigger and better things, I'm gonna need one of the bigger models. Now, I've been looking around these and other sites, and I've found some boats I might want to try:

Jackson kayaks superfun
Fluid Flirt large
Liquid logic cross river 250
Wavesport EZG 60

Or perhaps:

Riot Nitro 58
Bliss-stick RAD195

I'dd appreciate any general comments, suggestions and corrections, any tips on these boats and tips on other boats to look at, basically anything you could possibly have to say on this topic.

So, those are enough words for one post I think.

Well Here are my Suggestions.


The Boats I have been in

Dagger G Ride 6.5
I loved this boat but I out grew it quite quickly. Was a great boat but it just seemed to pearl to much. Though I didn't really get a chance to try out the playboating of it.
Pyrahna S6F
Got this boat for its river running and playboat abilities. I could squirt this on demand. I loved it. It just made my feet fall asleep to quickly.
Dagger Honcho
I went to a true River Running Playboat. I loved this boat. But I let my want for a Jackson. If I could get this boat back I would. It was a great RiverRunner.
Jackson Super Fun
Another Boat I wish I could get back. Though I wanted two boats. A true hard core playboat and a Big ol River Runner.
Liquid Logic Air Head
I got this boat on a little impulse. Its (in my mind) the best playboat for bigger guyes.

Definately take some rides in the RAD 195!

I think you will be surprised with its agility and then even more surprise that it is so forgiving.

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm going to have a good look at those boats.

Experience, as Bliis-Stick ambassador, can you tell me whether you still have dealers in the Netherlands (or in Belgium)? Kanoshop used to do that, but both your and their site seem to indicate the link has been lost. And it's hard to be surprised if you can't test drive...

The airhead looks fun, but probably to slow and hardcore for at least some riverrunning.
I would be quite heavy for the G-ride, I don't know if I like being quite heavy for a boat, I like to float.
The Honcho is pretty long for a real playboat, but for some old-school tricks it would do, and it looks like a river-runner. Is there a big difference in river running ability between boats like the honcho and the inazone and shorter boats?
I really don't know what to think of the s6f, but it sure looks cool.

weirdoinventor wrote:

Experience, as Bliis-Stick ambassador, can you tell me whether you still have dealers in the Netherlands (or in Belgium)? Kanoshop used to do that, but both your and their site seem to indicate the link has been lost. And it's hard to be surprised if you can't test drive...

I got an email out and waiting on response. I will let you know ASAP!

Experience Bliss-Stick wrote:

out and waiting on response. I will let you know ASAP!

Thanks.

IMO the CR250 is one huge turd! I had one and got rid of it as soon as I got my replacement...

The Jackson Superfun is a top shelf boat at 100kg you might consider the 4fun

Dont know much abot the BlissSticks in whitewater I took one out in flatwater and didnt have a good time but you cant really use that as a measure stick. What I can say about them is their sales system in the US is the coolest that I have seen. They have ambasadors (local sales reps) so you buy your boat from a local paddler. Out local guy up here is incredibly trustworthy and usually pretty easy to get a hold of. So would I buy one... need more water time with them.

THe fluid line is pretty cool and I would LOVE to try out the flirt. also the Nemesis...

What I would really advise you to do is Demo out as many as you can... I love Jacksons and Wavesport...the outfitting is sooooooo comfy! cant say that about LiquidLogic.

WS as I understand it has a new RR/Playboat due out soon

Also remember that the weight range stuff is not a science so get out there and Demo!

Thanks for the response.

For the Jacksons it looks like there is quite a difference between the old and the new models, with the new 4fun having as much volume as the old superfun, seems they thought they made it too long to still be good for play, so now they moved everybody down a boat.

There are plenty of changes in the fun models... Although I dont paddle one (yet) I have yet to meet someone who isnt pleased with them.

The largest changes were in the plastic...linear to crosslink plastic and the hull was changed up too... I know of a few paddlers up here who compete in rodeos with their fun series. As far as riverrunning vs play goes.... well put side by side the funs have more volume and length than the smaller (star, project,agent) playboats.

Many schools teach intro and up ww classes in the fun series. They are reliable and not too catchy.

If I were buying a first ww boat I would really give strong consideration to them, they are easy to get to know, confidence building and as your skills progress the boat is capable to move up with you. They have enough length and volume for larger and more difficult rivers (New,Gauley and the like) but can still play once you want to learn. They loop,cartwheel, split, blunt, spinn exceptionally well and their customer service is amazing.

Ok Ill get done pimping JK now:roflol:

Weirdoinventor,

The website link for Europe is the one on our website www.bliss-stick.de or
Check out the dealer links www.bliss-stick.com/default.aspx?pageid=111

It would be better for you to contact Hans Denk at this email [mail address protected from spambots with javascript] who runs the whole Europe side of Bliss-stick and Im sure he can
Let you know who the contact is for the Netherlands. Hans owns Kajakshop in Germany and distributes all over Europe for us.
He is a great guy and very helpful with the boats.

Many thanks and hope this helps

I got into kayaking a couple of years ago and I used to paddle an old school boat. I recently got an EZG 60 and it is awesome, I'm 6'3\" and fit no problem. The outfitting is great and it is extremely easy to roll.

redzeke11 wrote:

I got into kayaking a couple of years ago and I used to paddle an old school boat. I recently got an EZG 60 and it is awesome, I'm 6'3\" and fit no problem. The outfitting is great and it is extremely easy to roll.

And how is the plastic? I heard it's not the most sturdy boat imaginable. this boatertalk poll seems to confirm that, and apparently the Jacksons aren't really good either...

O, and experience, I got the mail out, I'm waiting for a response now.

O, wait, another o. Thanks to living in the Netherlands, I will be trying boats out on flatwater. I will be taking someone, hopefully a few someones, with me for advice, but it doesn't hurt to ask here too: what can you do on flatwater to test whitewater performence? I think you can get a pretty good idea about how fast a boat is, it shouldn't make a lot of difference. You can test how well it turns, rolls and plays, up to some extend. What appears harder is testing how the ballance of the boat is, how stable it will be. What it does at drops, waves and holes seems hard to tell too, and of course the overall impression will just not be as good. Any tips?

Head to the North Sea... I have surfed it many many times

WS and JK plastics are just fine... As a testament to their plastic go to www.youtube.com and search for \"bearpaw\"... That is our local store/resort. It was hit by a tornado June 7th and their boats were sent all over. I am currently paddling a Project that was lifted out of the shop (which was levelled) and it has 1 small hole. Many of the boats were salvageable, as you can see in the video. That includes the JK kayaks. EJ personally emailed the owners and was more than willing to help get them up and running again... JK donated a boat for raffle as a fundraser. I cant speak higher about Jackson Kayak and how supportive they have been to the kayaking community, especially after that tornado...

In summary, The plastic is terrific and stands up well to the shallow rivers around here.

Keep us posted

I think an old super fun will be a good boat for you

As you are a student and said that you do not want to spent much monney . And right you are the less monney you spent and still have a goord boat the more you can paddle )

perhaps this will be fine:

ll big wheel
www.kanoshop.nl/2ehands.lp?ID=1052

super ez
www.kanoshop.nl/2ehands.lp?ID=1017

420 xl
www.arendbloem.nl/kanokoopjes/index.php?...ano_view&id=2276

I think for you the superez is the boat i should buy now in the netherlands You can have fun in that one on flat, surf and whitewater for i think about 2 years pracitse a lot and that buy something with a bit more pop for the arials.

perhaps tomorrow at dwd somebody will sell you a great boat if you are there.

have fun

Laddie wrote:

Head to the North Sea... I have surfed it many many times

But will they let me go? After all, I'll be trying boats from a shop, and they'll be smelling I'm not there to buy them.

I got my answer, no Bliss-Stick dealing in the Netherlands. It's done not too far into Germany, but it's exactly in the opposite direction of where I can test most of the other boats. The Jackson also gives me some trouble, being dealt only at the (for whitewater kayaks) smaller of the two shops in the Netherlands and especially being really different in old and new model. Anyhow, I think the flirt, the ezg or the cr is going to be favorite. The look like very nice boats. (With the flirt having the highest user rating here at playak, but also being the shortest and the one with the least volume of the three, making it a more radical playboat and being the broadest, stable but hard to roll.)

I'm affraid I won't be there tomorrow at DWD, Saturdays are always difficult for me, expecially on a late notice, I heard about it this weak.

Keep us posted

I will. Should be able to plan some testing in one or several locations in the next few months, just after the next exams perhaps.

Avoid the CR like a street walking hooker!!!!!!! the only good thing (imo) about that kayak is it has a drain plug. doesnt do anything well and the stern is super catchy. My feet went to sleep right away...all round POS! but hey you might like it

As far as demoing in the sea...hey, its your demo of the boat. If I were going to be demoing a kayak for ocean surf I wouldnt take it out on the river. Its not too far to get out there no matter where in the Netherlands you are and if you rinse it out after you'll be fine...

The flirt is a sweet design but I have yet to paddle one and the EZG is nice too.

demo as many as you can and keep an eye out on the used market

Laddie wrote:

Avoid the CR like a street walking hooker!!!!!!! the only good thing (imo) about that kayak is it has a drain plug. doesnt do anything well and the stern is super catchy. My feet went to sleep right away...all round POS! but hey you might like it

That bad?

That bad... I hated that kayak... That boat is the reason why I will never buy another boat without a demo... Actually turned me away from LL completely... I know you cant judge the entire company by one boat design and there are many boats out there... That kayak did not suit me

DEMO DEMO DEMO...

Personally, there is no reason that a person of your weight shouldn't use the 05/06 jackson superstar as a river-running playboat... I've had mine down enough 4/5 steep creeks over here in the UK, my only regret is that having lost about 20Kg I'm far too light to use it as a playboat anymore.

TheKrikkitWars wrote:

Personally, there is no reason that a person of your weight shouldn't use the 05/06 jackson superstar as a river-running playboat... I've had mine down enough 4/5 steep creeks over here in the UK, my only regret is that having lost about 20Kg I'm far too light to use it as a playboat anymore.

You don't hear that a lot, people complaining they lost weight.
But they do really work on the river than. Good to hear.

By the way, I noticed that boats for large people have relatively less volume than those for smaller people. Is that a disadvantage in boofing and stuff?

At 60 gallons (about 230 litres) their is no shortage of volume, it is rather short (6\"4\" or 198cm) and light meaning that it boofs like a dream, but because it is relatively slow you have to work to keep speed up for those moments when it becomes critical to have momentum behind you.

I loved my superstar, so much so I gave it to my dad instead of selling it because I had a feeling I might have wanted to borrow it in the future, I was right.

After a small break, I picked up my search for a boat and went fitting this week. Appears that I am bigger (or the boats are smaller) than I thought. I didn't even fit in the cross river 250 (wish fullfilled Laddie ), or the dagger RX (already knew I didn't fit the big G-force). I paddled the jackson superstar a little, but with the happy feet in the boat I didn't fit were I'm supposed to fit, plus the boat was much too low in the water. The only boat in the shop I got comfortably into is the jackson superfun, and it's one big monster. Even there were they sell the boat they didn't have a sprayskirt for it, in the end they found a really big one which took three men to be put into place. As I took off, it felt like a slow stable boat which wouldn't go anywhere near vertical, but after a few tries I found I was wrong, if I can get my technique pollished a little dubble pumping it should be no problem. The boat is actually both stable and agile, to a certain extend, and it rolls like a wheel. I felt like perhaps I was even a little small for this boat, I actually had foot space and I sat high above the water, for my standards. It's a funny feeling, sitting in a boat you're not too heavy for for a change. According to the Jakson website the boat should be just right for my weight, and they're probably right on that one. Somewhere after my summer vacation I'll visit the other kayak shop of the country, see if they have anything for me there, my biggest hopes being the wavesport ezg (which is probably going to be too small) and the fluid flirt. After that the mission will be to demo any remaining candidates and find a boat. Now, I don't really know what I want you to do with this piece of text, but I'dd like to thank everybody that posted and gave me ideas. Bye!

My search is coming to an end. I got to try two wavesports, the project and the fuse, and I can see why people really like them, the project turns on every move of the paddle, it throws arround like tennis ball, it was however a tight squeeze for me, perhaps a little low volume, and way to responsive for my skills, I actually like to paddle straight every now and then, on rapids too. The fuse came closer to what I was looking for, fast for a short boat, and quite stable, but still enough play in it, and it doesn't feel like a huge monster like the superfun (I do still feel a little small for that boat, it's huge, and definately a good choise if you are taller and/or heavier than me). The footspace was plenty, although my legs were pressed to the top of the boat. I might actually have really loved the fuse, if I hadn't just before that tried the fluid flirt. That boat knocked me of my socks. Unlike the project, it actually enjoys going in a straight line, it's super stable but I could still flip it over the bow by paddling tucked forward. After a little playing arround on a pool of flatwater, I got an offer to demo it on dutch water dreams, an artificial white water course (probably something like white water 3 or perhaps 3+, I don't know). I had never been there before, but I tagged along. It's a bit of a shame they didn't have a fuse (or a project) for me there to try, but I came for the flirt, and there was a fluid spice for me there to compare it with. Somehow you'dd expect the spice to be a better boat for getting down alive, but that didn't show there. The flirt easily punched through a hole, while the spice lost almost all of its speed there. The flirt also proved more stable, I was impressed. I got the boat flipped over the stern (intentionally), but I didn't get grabbed all the time. It has two downsides: one is that it's slow, you need to put some power in it to get it started, got to get used to that. The other is that it's quite hard to roll (not that the fuse rolled like a dream, but perhaps a little better, the spice did roll quite easy). Granted, the turbulent water didn't help either, but I didn't really enjoy swimming there. I am worried it might be a little low in the water, but since it didn't get grabbed all the time, I guess that's not really the case. Anyway, looks like I'm going to work on my roll, cause I think I'm getting a flirt, and I think I'm going to like it...

[/attention whore update]