Hi

I'm sure many of you are fed up with this type of question but I think my situation is pretty rare (I did look in the other forum posts before putting this up)

I have been learning to roll for over a year now with little success. I can get about halfway up but not enough to stop the boat falling back upside down - sometimes I even get far enough up to get a breath before the boat falls back over .

The main problems seem (!) to be that I'm short, have a stiff back (the vertebrae at my waist have been effectively fused so I cant really lean back) and my legs dont really work so I only have a weak hip flick. I can brace OK and have a boat that shouldnt need rolling much to keep me improving my other paddling skills but a roll would be really nice!!!!

I have tried a variety of rolls (screw roll, c to c roll, backdeck roll, paulata roll) pretty much all unsuccessfully. I was wonderng if anyone out there had any tips or hints I could try in the pool sessions?

Thanks

I know it has been said before but...
seek pro instruction

Im trying to figure out what your physical limitations would be and thus how to get around them. can you t-rescue (eskimo rescue)? Reason is trying to learn the motion of the hip flick is the big key... If you are stiff from a lower lumbar injury/disease have you considered yoga?

Its quite possible to roll up and be in a neutral position even forward, its just easier if you are leaning back.

Also remember that the very last thing out of the water is your head. Are you sure that youre clearing the water with your paddle in the c-c? also might want to try and practise the sweep roll, watch the videos put on by exchile on roll identifiers. EJ also has a rolling and bracing dvd that is X-L-ent . I have noticed that when lewer paddelers try to teach themself they pick up really bad habbits that are hard to break. Hense, Go to a certified instructor

good luck and let us know how u do. I fI can help more or you have some specific things you would like to know, post back and Ill help as best as I can

Hi Ruth,

Thanks for writing. I will try to give you a little help here.

a] First, what kind of roll are you trying to do?

www.exchile.com/KayakSchoolRollIdentifier.htm

Generally for people with stiff backs we prefer to teach the Twist snd Slice roll as is involves less motion of the spine. However, with a fused vertebrae you should pick the kind of roll that causes the least potential for discomfort.

b] From your description: \"I can get about halfway up but not enough to stop the boat falling back upside down - \" it usually indicates a neglect of your initial body position. The result is running out of kinetic motion before the roll is executed. You need to move your mind from a Paddle, Arm, Hand centric thinking to BODY centric thinking. The roll has nothing to do with hands, paddle and arms, but ALL to do with the BODY. Any other way of thinking will delay your progress.

See:



All kayak rolls are initiated from the SIDE of the kayak. This is not apparent when you are focusing on the Hands, Arms and Paddle Blade. Where your torso is positioned at the beginning of the motion is CRITICAL. All rolls involve winding up the torso and then unwinding the torso. If you are dangling underneath the kayak with perfect paddle, hands and arm placement you will only get halfway up. The next time you go to the pool think about bringing your body up and to the side before beginning the roll -(you should feel a lot more power then).

c] If you can get a person to videotape your roll and post it to YouTube or another video hosting site we will be better able to help you, we have done this many times in the past. However, as another poster noted, getting a good instructor is always the fastest and best option.

Let us know your progress and how it all works out.

Regards,

Chris Spelius
www.kayakchile.com

Ruth, I can't be sure because I haven't seen you, but I am 90% sure the reason you aren't gettung up is that oncy you are almost there you lift your head up, and like you say, \"Get a breath\". Try just doing your roll like normal, but when you are coming up, focus on keeping your ear against your shoulder, or look at your paddle blade, or something that will help you keep your head down. Don't worry about it, it is probably the most common error I see in people when learning to roll.
Hope this helps.

Thanks a lot guys!! I do have pro instruction - great coaches from the club I am a member of - but I think we are going into uncharted territory with bits of me not working as they should. I had a spinal injury so my legs only have a bit of movement and where my break was ended up having the vertebrae fused (at my waist).

I dont think (!) I'm killing the roll with my head - none of my coaches have told me that and I do think about sticking my head onto my shoulder.

I can do an eskimo rescue (so I do have enough of a hip flick for that) but I do use the stength in my arms more than others I guess.

The roll I have been trying to do more than any other is a sweep roll with a bit of a forward push with the paddle at the end so I can come up on the front deck rather than the back deck. The last few weeks a different coach has suggested a c to c roll as I wasnt getting any closer to succeding with the sweep roll.

What it feels like underwater is that my arms arent long enough to keep the paddle at the surface of the water so it then dives. I run out of support from the paddle then I follow it. Obviously my arms are long enough otherwise no short people would ever roll. I'm at the pool again tomorrow so if I remember I'll take the camera with me for you all to disect my poor roll (or lack of it).

Thanks again I'll keep you all updated

you can clear your hands at the beginning, then your paddle dives.... Sounds like you arent getting your body out to the side or your blade is on a diving angle... get some video out there and we'll take a look

Id especially listen to Chris (exchile). By far the most complete instruction will come from him

All good advice - video feedback is a really good learning tool: you might even find that you'll spot the problem yourself (you aren't always doing what you think you're doing)

Considering your spinal injury - maybe you should consider the outfitting in your boat. i.e. Make sure your hip pads are nice and snug, and maybe consider knee blocks in conjunction with your thigh braces? Even if you don't have much movement in your legs, the more snug you are in the boat the more all your movements will translate to the boat...

Perhaps also try a different type of boat? Bearing in mind that something like a creekboat is much easier to roll than a playboat...

ummm well to be honest i don't really what to advise but all i can really say is make sure your head is the last thing out of the water.
i would advise leaning back soyour head touches the boat and rolling your head up the back of the boat but as you have a stiff back that could be a problem.
i think your best bet is probly to seek advise from a profesional instructor who can show u exactly what to do

cheers... Charles

to help limber up, do lots and lots of yoga...there is even a DVD out there called youga for paddlers

Hope that is of some help

I don't know if this would be recommended, but you could start the roll with a brace, then use your hip snap followed by another brace. Also, try a boat with a displacement hull, like daverice said. Some good boats to try would be a Dagger RPM, a Jackson Rocker, or a LL Remix.

My roll is a version of the sweep roll but I don't go all the way back and come up with my torso and head on the front deck.. the roll you want to have..
so:
I noticed you said your paddle blade was diving??

all I can say (if no one else said it already) is this:

1) when the blade dives, you are relying too much on your arms and your hip flick isn't fast or good enough yet.. In your case it seems that you need to rely on your arms more than other kayakers. However, givin enough time you will get a stronger and faster hip flick. You could try developing a faster hip flick.

2) as you "sweep" across the water, you need to make sure you keep sweeping. Some people I've noticed will start the sweep, then pull with their arms and hip snap.. making the blade dive, and also making it harder to hip flick. The purpose of the sweep roll is that you move the blade in an arc across the water, giving you more power in your roll as you have more resistance on the blade of the paddle to that of the water. I can definitely say that my roll is much easier when I focus on sweeping the blade in a good level arc and then hip snapping, as two separate motions.

3) the last thing I can say is that your blade angle is incorrect at the beginning of your sweep so it dives on you.. Make sure the blade is aligned with your knuckles, and your knuckles are out of the water when you begin your sweep roll. play with the angle in which you set your paddle up, try and turn your hands so that the angle of the blade is positive to the angle of the water and will then stay more on the surface of the water.

4) If it is the angle of your blade and you still have trouble correcting it, you can always demo and try different paddles with different degrees of offset. Or even different paddles, such as one that has a bigger blade, thus more surface area to help you with a more power in your roll.

5) get a pair of goggles if you don't have some so you can see what your doing right and wrong under water.

You've probably heard it all before but those are some suggestions of mine:P