Greetings,

Now, I have a Riot Disco. Nice boat I know but I'd maybe risk saying slightly large/volumous compared to the majority of play boats.

I also have a relatively long paddle.

Now I'm having right troubles learning flatwater moves - still on the basics like the cartwheel --- would i find it just as difficult in a different boat with a short paddle? Am I just blaming my tools?!

I should still be able to learn flatwater tricks in my Disco thou shouldn't i...

amx

If you get yourself a proper fit for your Disco, you will find it easier to build up the momentum for the smash, where you put the bow under.
With Disco´s ergonomics, I´d say you better outfit it until it fits like a glove.
You will learn it, no problem.

The disco is probably a little harder to flatwater in then newer boats. I have never paddled one, but it is a larger boat by today's standards. The paddle shouldn't make a difference though. Flatwater can be frustrating. Keep at it!

kuuskoski wrote:

, I´d say you better outfit it until it fits like a glove.

I'm pretty squeezed in it thanks to some many layering of padding and chopping up of roll mats!! Should I be as far forward as I possibly can be? And as low down?

When i get it, the seat was raised up and quite a way back, but someone told me to get it as low and forward as possible....

Cheers

I currently paddle a disco, and these are my thoughts: it's a good river runner, it's awesome to carve around on a wave. It's not so great in a hole. As far as flatwater tricks go, it does have a bit too much volume for me. It's not impossible to learn in it, but it would be much easier in a newer design boat. I can't get my double pump in it on flat. I tried a Crazy 88 (just borrowed so wasn't outfitted properly) and got vertical (then flopped over) on my first attempt. Also paddling these newer types of kayaks in a hole is much easier.

I think the newer boats hulls are more rounded than the disco, which is completely flat. This helps in the hole and it is far looser in a hole. The trade off is that it does not carve as well on a wave. Having said that, the disco sticks to the wave and does not bounce at all, which is what you want for all the latest tricks.

Overall the disco is a very good boat and you can have a lot of fun with it. However, if you want to learn all the newest playboating moves, you'll be better off in a newer playboat! I'm not sure what your experience is, or how much $$ you can afford to spend, but what I'd suggest (because it's what I've done) is learn what you can in the disco, then look around for something else to progress to the next step.

edit: as for your seat, move it so that the boat is level. i.e. if you sit in flat water, the back or front shouldn't be more higher/lower than the other end. Then I guess you can move it later if you feel you're too far forward or back, depending on your preference.

Just come back from another play down the flat bay... frustrating day today...

Yeah i'm dreaming of getting a new playboat, but don't think it's going to happen just yet...

thinking of having one freestyle lesson with some local folk - least they can look at what im doing and tell me where it's going wrong - it's hard when uve not got someone watching you who can actually see what u need to do...

might be best in thread like this one if people gave their current height and weights since that can make a big difference in each model boat and each size of each model.

I paddled a Disco for four years starting from it's first release date. Each year I tried a new design and went back to the Disco. It was/is a great boat to have for a little bit of everything and it will cartwheel and loop like a champ.
I weighed 155lbs (just barely over 70kg) when I owned the boat so it was a good river runner for me too.

There are plenty of new boats that would make flatwater moves easier because they are shorter and/or more slicey.
Just so you know, a shorter boat will be slower, thus fewer waves and less river running ability. A more \"sllicey\" boat will be better in the flatwater and on eddy lines, but might flush out of the bottom of holes more easily. it's all a trade off. It just depends where your priorities are.

So, what do you weigh right now?

humz im not 100% sure how much i weight, but i'd guess around 70kg...

i want to do a bit of everything -- waves, playing and rivers, but can't afford a baot for each (although that would be nice!!)... so the disco sounds a good all rounder...

just need to keep practising hey!

cheers

Around 70 is a good weight, 2 make flatwater on disco, not so easy as newer boats, but stiil good enough, So keep on trying.

getting there....

got all the way over and down again a few times now... finding rock-a-babies alot easier... but on double pump now most of the time going over forwards as well as sideways...!

But... got some Happy Feet and a Freestyle lesson from Santa so rock on!

if you are falling over forward (like in your avatar picture) then you are on the right path. All you need now is more practice/time and it will happen. Congratulations.

The above post mentioning forward/backward seat position is spot on advice.

As for seat height that will affect things as well. The higher your seat the easier it will be for you to get your weight over the boat to help you throw down on your double pump. The disadvantage will be that as your centre of gravity will be higher the boat will be less stable perhaps not a good thing from a river running point of view. I know people who swear by being as high up as they can possibly get in a boat and others who do not like it at all.

The Glide which is arguably the boat that started off the flat bottom playboat revolution was available with three different seat height options: a very low seat, a medium high seat and a very high seat which I think they called the power seat. Some of the Riot boats that followed had a sort of floating seat pan thing which you could release the straps which held it in place and stuff a thicker block of foam under in order to raise your height in the boat. I don’t know if the Disco ever had this arrangement or not.

The disco has two seat options - and I have it on the lower one...

Unfortunately, i've padded it out so it's real nice and snug on the lower one, and i'd have to remove all my lovely padding to be able to raise the height!

Shame thou since it would be interesting to try it raised up to help get my weight over...

Cheers
amx

I've potentially got access to a Bliss Stick Flip Stick.

While it's volume (50gal) is a little more than the Disco (47gals) (which i'm quite suprised at actually), it seems like there is more volume around teh cockpit and less and bow and stern...

Would it be worth going to the Flipstick to try and perfect the flatwater?

(www.eddyflower.com/ShowBoat.aspx?BoatId=118)

Cheers in advance

I'm not sure that it will improve your flatweel. Try 2 train on somethin' like Percepetion Spin - less volume your boat has, easer 2 start...

the lenght of your paddle is important too, it got to be long enough to have power andgetting you vertical when you double pump

but it got to be short so it's easy to ling ends when flatweter cartwheeling

O, yes, about paddle! Try 2 train with paddle with 0 feather degree, that would be dramatically easer 2 make your nosestall. If u can make nosestall - most difficult part os flatwater is passed.

0° degree is maybee to much 10°wil be OK

Maybe... I started with zero, and never tryed 10.

sounds like i need to work harder to i can afford a new boat and paddle! haha

O. it's Just beginning, my little friend, just beginng... And God bless u 2 stop!

yeah, got a few expensive hobbies now... scuba diving is up there as pretty expensive too!! haha

Its the old arguement technique VS power. Technnique is the right answer
watch DVD's
Read books and find out the techniques you need dont bother buying new kit

creeker89 wrote:

Read books and find out the techniques you need dont bother buying new kit

sounds much cheaper than a new boat and paddle, excellent

cheers everyone 4 ur help

I am finding that i am having trouble just getting verticle on flat water. i paddle a dagger g ride 6.2 and i weigh about 80kg. the only way i have of getting vertical is to put a bit of water in the boat

could someone please explain the correct tecnique to me

knoxy wrote:

I am finding that i am having trouble just getting verticle on flat water. i paddle a dagger g ride 6.2 and i weigh about 80kg. the only way i have of getting vertical is to put a bit of water in the boat

could someone please explain the correct tecnique to me

dude you want to learn what's called the Double Pump which is the first part of the cartwheel... which is what i'm trying!

There's millions of threads on here about double pumps and what do you (and what not to do) - this one seems good: playak.com/index.php?option=com_joomlabo...=17969&catid=109

Also, there's heaps of movies on youtube - just search double pump kayak or cartwheel...

Or even better get an instructional DVD - something like playboating basics by EJ - it's very good and helpful..

Good luck

Also just found this site:

www.expertvillage.com/videos/kayaking-ba...-freestyle-drill.htm

That exact link is a double pump practise drill, and look below it you'll see heaps of other movies

Thanks a lot