Greetings paddlers
I'm really, really hoping to get some feedback on this one...here goes...

Has anyone ever heard of LCL injuries in kayaking??
IS THERE A DOCTOR IN THE HOUSE?


I've been kayaking for about 12 years, now, fairly regularly (2-3x a week on the Limmat, 1x per week
winter pool practise..).
I got started in various boats, really got going in an old Dagger Blast in 1998 (which I still occasionally use, and use a lot for teaching), then got a more 'modern' boat in 2000, a trusty InaZone, and in Aug 2006, I got another Pyranha, the S:8. Even though it's a more 'radical' 'playboat' design, in fact
I sit in it very, very comfortably. (BTW I'm built TOTALLY WRONG for kayaking, being 187 cm & 80 kg..)

I've paddled the S:8 a lot, trying to learn how to cartwheel etc., I *love* this boat...

While trying to cartwheel and generally playing under the covered bridge ('Holzbrücke') here in Baden last June (2008 - note: 3rd season in this boat), I tipped over and, in the middle of rolling up, felt a sort of explosive *SNAP!* and some MAJOR PAIN in my right knee (right side roll)...

It scared the piss out of me...I had visions of crutches etc. But most immediately I had visions
of not being able to roll up again, or even being able to walk home under my own steam.
So I quickly paddled into the eddy, and very slowly, very gingerly, stood up in the boat. *whew!*
I could put weight on it....
I got off the river asap, went home, and babied it for about 10 days. Then, of course, I got back in
the boat - it was SUMMER, after all! (and summer is too short here in Switzerland..)
To make a long story short, it seems that I ruptured the LCL
<<www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001079.htm>www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001079.htm>www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001079.htm
though I didn't find this out until September...
So I figured: get into the boat eeeeeaaaaasy, stretch around a bit, and try to roll on your LEFT side for a few weeks.
I also bike etc and slowly the achy-sort of pain on the outside of the knee subsided.
A few weeks later while playing on a river in France, I felt a similar pain (though not as bad) in my left knee while rolling up on the left side. *WHAT THE...?!* Yep: same thing.

I want to stress: I sit VERY comfortably in the S:8 - and have rolled it, I don't know, hudreds of times...also in the pool in winter etc.

So last autumn I was definitely observing several points:
- the act of getting INTO the boat hurt, I had to get in very carefully/slowly, then (by then both)
knees hurt for 2-3 minutes. So I stretched and paddled slowly, and after 2-3 minutes the pain was
more or less gone. At the first roll I felt another twinge, but then things were ok for the usual 2 hours or so...
- at the end of the season I noticed I was still feeling a lot of tenderness on the outside of both knees
(where the LCL runs), so I scheduled an appt at the local klinik and they did an MRI.
The diagnosis: "Ruptured LCL with visible evidence of multiple re-injuries"
YES DOCTOR I CONFESS I DID CONTINUE TO KAYAK ALL SUMMER AND YES SIR IT DID HURT
EVERY TIME I GOT IN THE BOAT YES SIR I AM STUPID SIR! but kayaking is important to my SOUL so mere knee pain...
etc etc etc.
Well fall came and went and now winter. I can run, bike, telemark etc. - basically it doesn't hurt
(either one)...both knees are now more or less ok (but strangely enough the left one - which wasn't injured as badly as the right one seemed to be at the time - has begun 'clicking', no I should say, *POPPING*...LOUDLY...but at least it's not painful. The popping happens upon unweighting it e.g. climbing stairs, upon transfering weight to right leg, unweighting left leg and lifting it up to take the next step...*POP*, actually sort of a *SNAP* sound...*ugh!* But again, it doesn't really *hurt*..

So at the klinik we all decided that, in the s:8 my feet are more or less heel-to-heel and pointed
quite sharply forward, and there is a *slight* torque outward, i.e. on my big toes/ball of the foot.
So there is a bit of torque on the foot on a continuous basis, but that's it. I can play in this boat for
a couple of hours and have no problem (this is not even close to how much pain a lot of us have
in teensy weensy loop-machines...I'm comfortable in this boat!)

I would really like to understand more about how this happened, since as I say I had the boat 3 seasons before the injury occurred, it's not like I tried a major-short/radical playboat and then experienced this injury after the first week or so.

We've got pool practise going on now and all it took was me to sit in the s:8 once and do one, slow, very relaxed roll, and although I didn't do any damage, I felt the knee...it's clear if I continue using this boat I'm going to pop my LCLs again. So: sell the s:8.
Now I'm looking for a boat that I can get my 34" inseam into along with my 45 feet, and still have a chance of being able to cartwheel etc.

I would like to know if I'M THE ONLY ONE ON THE PLANET to have INJURED LCLs in a KAYAK...

Also interested in boat recommendations from similarly built (long & gangly) types.
As I say, I fit GREAt in a the 225 s:8, so at the moment, I'm pondering the Recoil or
the Jackson Fun line...

Feedback appreciated VERY much..

Paddledreams
GlennB

If you're having knee problems, don't get a Jackson. The thigh braces are much more spread out than any other boat that I have sat in. which includes the Pyranha S:7 and Burn, LL Remix 59 and Li'l Joe, Dagger RPM, Fluid Solo, Wave Sport Diesel. Basically, instead of feeling like you are sitting with your knees up, it feels like sitting with your legs crossed. I am around 5'7" and could only fit comfortably in the Punk Rocker and 2Fun, even though I really wanted the Hero (after I bought my Solo, the Little Hero was announced, but I have not had a chance to try it). If it is only when rolling, I have felt a sharp pain in the back of my thigh (hamstring or quadricep?), and I had to take a short break, and was limping for a few minutes, and didn't try to roll for a little while. You may want to try knee blocks, and here is a good link to look at .

Though not a doctor, I have seen many knee injuries through collegiate athletics, most people remember distinct pops or tearing, but The LCL is a stabilizing ligament. It sounds as though you might have strained it or torn it slightly (the MRI would show it most of the time) also when injuring these areas repeatedly the ligament and cartilage tends to break apart with pieces floating around which can cause locking, clicking etc. if severe enough most people get them scoped out to get rid of the stuff.
In terms of paddling injuries to knee ligaments usually have to do with quick motions with bones moving and not the rest of the body cutting through the tendons, cartilage, and ligaments. I would try some knee strengthen exercises to help build more support from the muscles around the knee and see if that helps some.
Boats can't say much there I paddle a jackson 2fun and I am tall and lengthy for a female, but always have the problem of meeting weight specs and getting my legs in the boat.
Hope that helps some.

'If you're having knee problems, don't get a Jackson'
Nonsense. What do you base that on?

I've multiple knee problems and I can tell you that JK is a very good boat to sit in. Problem as you describe might actually have to do with the relativly straight sitting position in the Sub7. The Jk Fun will give you place to move your feet around, thus eliminating in the knee joint.
Try the boats for yourself and don't rely on our subjective support.

Work on your generell body position while kayaking might actually help your knees, regardless of boat type...

I don't have any LCL pain, but I would think that the Jacksons might be worse because your knees are further apart. The thigh padding feels cheaper than minicell, and I can feel pulled muscles just sitting in a boat that is "supposed" to fit me at the store (Hero). Jackson seems to be the only American boat company that makes the thigh braces so far spread out, since I've paddled a Dagger and LL, and sat in a WS. Since he said that it felt pulled while rolling, I think that having less pressure on your thighs and knees would probably help. Definitely try to find a Jackson and a Liquid Logic to compare the seating positions for yourself. If you paddle with a club, someone probably has one of these kayaks, and would let you try it out.

All that I was trying to say is that I don't think that the JK thigh braces are comfortable, because of the amount your thighs stretch sideways, and the only boats that I was comfortable in were the Punk Rocker and 2Fun, even though I was in the size range for the Hero. I ended up with a Fluid, but that's a different story.

Sitting wider apart with your knees does not influence the angle/ rotation component in the kneejoint much. Your hip will rotate more outward. Cheap looking is not the same as non functional in my opinion. To avoid 'pulling on muscles' you might try to tighten your hip padding. Use your whole body while moving etc. good body posture is essential...


Just try out....

First off, MAYN THANKS for all the replies, I really appreciate it.

I hope this thread continues to generate traffic on the issue...

I htink my posture is ok (I paddle in a club with a lot of 1st-rate boaters who would've
long ago talked to me if there was an issue there..)

I'm pretty convinced that a more modern hull - with their typically higher knee-position - plus a bit more room up front - will help me be able to get the torque - however slight it is - off my feet, which me and the doctors seem to think is the problem.

Has anyone else had LCL tears? Heard of anyone having had LCL tears??

I'd really like to hear from someone who also had the injury, or from orthpedic doctors who can imagine how this could happen in a kayak...

THANKS!

Paddlin' Dreams

Glennb