I just wanted to get the opinions of some folks who've been doing this for a while. I'm new to the sport and looking into getting my first yak. I want a boat that can handle WW but can also track well on flatwater. I've looked at the Liquid Logic Remix 9, Pyranha Fusion, Jackson All-water and Dagger Approach 9. I'm not sure if these are the right boats for me but I've done some rec paddling in a 12 ft Naecky and didn't like how immobile it was. Any suggestions or recomendations would be greatly appreciated. Have fun.

review of the Approach, Remix XP, and Fusion

It seems like from rec boat to ww boat (least to greatest in terms of WW performance), it goes Approach, Remix XP, and Fusion. The Approach is outfitted mostly like a rec boat, but they tossed in some minicell foam to say that it has thigh braces. Woody Callaway used the Remix XP on the Grand Canyon , and the Fusion is pretty capable as well . The only real difference in the Remix XP and Fusion is that the Fusion is faster, tracks better, has a watertight hatch from the P & H and Venture sea kayaks, and has a true footblock, instead of foot pegs.

CJCC,

I can't imagine anything tracking better than the LL XP as I have one and paddle it quite a bit. I mean, once you're going straight--straight is straight and with the skeg down it keeps its track for quite a ways--as far as my sea kayak does. I find the XP9 really fast for a 9 footer (actually once you get your hull speed up it's a matter of keeping it there and that's where the added hull length comes in). I'm gonna do a 12 mile run with my XP9 this morning and compare my time with the times I've been able to accomplish with my Hurricane Tracer 165 (16.5 feet long). I can do 12miles in moderate wind chop in 2hrs 30 minutes in the sea yak. Just to see. I'm training for the Kayuba Kayak Against Cancer off Ft. Lauderdale June 20th, so it will be a good work out regardless.

But the XP9 is fast--it's a great boat. As far as the hatch goes, I soak mine from the outside and only get maybe 2 teaspoons of water in there and I know that's just about needing to add some silicon or caulk at the magic spot in the bulkhead (If I can find the spot); that's something I've had to do on all my 'hatched' boats. Part of boating. I think the little water that does get in gets there from the little that gets in the cockpit from my water shoes--somewhere where the foam bulkhead and hull meet on the inside of the cockpit. Once I realized that I needed to tighten the skeg lever a little with a screw driver after its flatbed journey, any water dribble from there ceased (no dribble since January after heavy use). So she stays dry inside.

Listen, I have never paddled the Fusion and am sure, with its company lineage, its a fine boat. But my LL XP9 is one of my personal favorite boats. I've paddled it for miles and miles on all sorts of conditions (flats, ocean surf, and "small craft advisory conditions" ). It is the safest boat in rough water I've ever been in and I've been in quite a few. And I've had it out on the Atlantic in surf and it does a great job there as well. It fits well in the back of an SUV with the seats down too, so it's just a great all round boat with a really excellent build quality. Check out my review on this site when you get a minute, Micah. There may be a review of the Fusion too.

But please save your money and don't blow it on the Dagger Approach. It's a cheapie from all the pictures I've seen and comments I read from people who have tried one. Real stinker.

It looks like the Approach's outfitting actually has real thigh braces now, but still no hip pads. Also, here's some more reviews.

cksblog.com/?p=1914
cksblog.com/?cat=98
shopgetoutdoors.com/blog/2008/11/20/revi...-liquid-logic-xp-10/
www.snewsnet.com/cgi-bin/snews/14647.html
www.outdoorplay.com/store/Product.asp?SK...&utm_campaign=search (scroll down to customer reviews)

I can't wait until someone does a review of the Jackson Allwater. Someone not working for Jackson would be good (Jackson is a cool company and I will own one of their boats one day); I just like to see what an outsider/customer has to say. It looks like a good boat too.

Those are great review links, CJCC. Most I'd seen before but hadn't seen the head-to-head comparison of the Fusion and XP. I can see where you're getting the comparison between the Fusion and LL Remix XP. So you answered that one. I'd like to try a Fusion to compare. Like I said, Pyranha is a great company so it's bound to be a nice kayak. There are a good set of choices out there for you, Micah, so that's good.

TBudd wrote:

There are a good set of choices out there for you, Micah, so that's good.

Especially compared to last year, when the only choice would have been the Approach. I'm sure that it's still decent on class I and II whitewater, but it's not outfitted properly, so at that point, the only other choice would have been the Pyranha Master TG. Also, have you considered the Dagger Green Boat? It should be fast on flatwater, but will be much better on whitewater. I don't get why everyone complains about WW boats not tracking well on flatwater, since as long as you continue to paddle, you will go pretty straight.

It's a LONG review by me, but might give some helpful info:

playak.com/kayaks.php?op=showreview&rid=422

"I don't get why everyone complains about WW boats not tracking well on flatwater, since as long as you continue to paddle, you will go pretty straight."

You are spot-on about that too. I don't either. One thing my recent trek into slalom kayaking has taught me very well is that if you learn the hull and how to steer with it (along with decent paddling technique--keeping the blade close to the hull) you don't need a rudder or even a skeg. It may make it easier, but I think starts to limit you technically. My DragoRossi SL350 is ALL about steering with the edges and it's very fun to do.

TBudd wrote:

"I don't get why everyone complains about WW boats not tracking well on flatwater, since as long as you continue to paddle, you will go pretty straight."

You are spot-on about that too. I don't either. One thing my recent trek into slalom kayaking has taught me very well is that if you learn the hull and how to steer with it (along with decent paddling technique--keeping the blade close to the hull) you don't need a rudder or even a skeg. It may make it easier, but I think starts to limit you technically. My DragoRossi SL350 is ALL about steering with the edges and it's very fun to do.

Well said and I would like to add that you don't need to keep paddling to keep the boat straight: it's all about edging.

A fun excercise is to paddle forward, stop paddling and try to keep going straight simply by edging your boat. Keep your body upright (otherwise you're leaning, not edging) en pull up one knee. Canoepolo players do this all the time when they hold their paddle in one hand and the ball in the other, ready to throw.

Cheers,

Michiel

"A fun excercise is to paddle forward, stop paddling and try to keep going straight simply by edging your boat."

That is so cool! I will definitely try that. Thanks, guy!

Well......the verdict on my timed 12 mile morning paddle in the LL Remix XP 9 (drum roll please. No? Whatever!):

Conditions: Not very nice starting out. Heading into 10-15 knot wind going one way and then the wind died coming back.

Time: 3 hours 11 minutes 43 seconds to go 12 miles on flat water in the XP9.

That's not bad for a 9 foot kayak methinks! Not sure what that tells us really, but the XP9 can paddle great distances with decent speed.

i'm not sure about this but i think the pyranha zone 1 would do well on the karnali.
as i said i'm not sure so if i'm wrong just tell me to shut up.
OK

The Zone 1 description does state that it can be used in a variety of conditions and water states, so maybe so. Wish I had a Pyranha shop near me!

It's made as a playboat/river runner, and was made after the Prozone, Inazone, etc. TBudd, for what you are doing, the Remix XP or Fusion was probably the ideal boat, but since you don't have a nearby Pyranha dealer, the Fusion was the best choice. Try to get back on topic though.

I could get a Fusion if I wanted one. Heck I had my XP shipped from Texas. *Austin Kayak is an excellent distributor of Liquid Logic Boats if Micah decided to go that way. You'll get your boat without any dings or scratches and they can pick you out a Sealskin sprayskirt to match. I have a number of boats in my quiver, each serves a different purpose. I like pushing each one's envelope. I really like my XP9 for all that it does. But really, my favorite thing to do with it is to take it out into rough water states. Of all the kayak's I've owned it has been one of the nicest in terms of quality.

Hey CJCC, I never did ask you: what's you're boat brand? Just curious guy.

Cheers!

It's all in my profile, but I have a Fluid Solo and a Dagger Zydeco. I need to get to a lake soon, because I think that my Solo is faster than my Zydeco, and if it is, I might eventually try to get a Bliss-Stick Specialist, Smoothy, or RAD 175.

Also, has anyone paddled a Pyranha Speeder? My local shop only has a model to sell, but I would think that it would be better than the Remix XP or the Fusion.

I looked at the Speeder too. Is the one at your local shop nice looking? I thought about it but opted to not get one because I felt it would be a little redundant for me up against my Tracer 165 (which is the boat I will use in my race if at ALL possible). Since I won't be up against surf skis (and it is a charity event first and foremost--the real reason I am going actually) it should do really well. If we're talking racing and not versatility of course.

www.hurricaneaquasports.com/tracer-165.html

It looks like a wildwater boat, but a bit more forgiving. The flare isn't nearly as big. The outfitting is the same as all Pyranha creekboats, and one nice thing is that the front pillar is in front of the footblock, so it is like a Prijon/Eskimo, with no real front pillar. Here's some reviews: www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=917268

I would think that it wouldn't be suitable for whitewater above class III or so based on the hull shape, but wildwater boats do that fine, so I don't know.

Go to the 3rd page of this link to see the inside of the Speeder: resource.brookbankcanoes.co.uk/pdf/speeder_feb07.pdf

Hey, I'm in the same boat, so to speak. I'm really interested in a crossover boat and have narrowed it down to a Jackson All Water (new out in 2009), the Liquid Logic Remix XP9, or the Pyranha Fusion (the Dagger is out, due to being more of a flatwater vessel). I get that the Fusion is a bit nimbler and tippy than the Remix but I'm not sure how it compares to the All Water. What have you found?

Hey maynard,

Since this conversation started some time ago a couple things have happened with me. I lost my XP9 off a car on a highway trip never to be seen again! I spent some time at the Nantahala Outdoor Center and got to feel (didn't have the opportunity to paddle/demo) the Jackson allwater, and then decided to get another Remix XP9. And I've taken my XP9 several times into much rougher conditions than I had ever before (kicked it up a few notches so to say)---40 knot wind swell wild ass conditions. The boat handled it all and I felt very secure in it--the odds seemed "even" most of the time. Most of the time--which is exactly the best you can hope for in terrible conditions. I loved it.

The outfitting on the Jackson boats is definitely the 'poorer cousin' compared to LL boats. Anyway, I wouldn't change my mind on recommending the XP for you (the 9 or 10 depending on your size). And I don't work for LL or anything. I have boats from other companies that do other things, so I go with what I want and what works.

Question: What are you going to use it for? What kind of conditions and how big are you?

TBudd,

Thanks for the input. Bummer about the flying LL. Guess kayaks can get air without a kite...

I'm short (5'2"), plan to do mostly rivers class I-III (maybe a IV), a lake now and then and once in a blue moon the ocean. I really like the idea of being self supported on short solo trips, am relatively aggressive (but not like I used to be), and am just getting back into kayaking after years of absence. I like your wild ass conditions now and then. i could see ramping up to longer, more ocean voyages, and bigger water. Need to redo my roll, for sure. Have my eyes open for a used boat.

I have info on the Jackson but no comparisons, so this is helpful. I didn't know the Jackson outfitting was not up to LL standards (they claim it is comfyville). Being short, I'm always wary of gear that is built for the average person; I don't know how the Pyranha Fusion, the All Water 9, and the LL XP9 compare in that regard. Have you tried the Fusion?

Thanks, maynard

I have tried the Fusion, and my only complaints were that the rim wasn't aggressive enough (not good at holding a skirt on, so more likely to implode), the back hatch rim had plastic flaking off (just chips of it were missing), there is not a center pillar (tons of oilcanning on it because of this) and there was not a drain plug. The things I did like were the simplicity of the outfitting, the good hatch (watertight since it is the same as their high-end touring company hatches) and the real foot bulkhead (goes all the way across the boat, and gives way more support than pegs). Basically, I would say the Fusion is most like a whitewater boat, then the Remix XP, and after that a tie between the All-Water and Approach. When I was looking at the demo boats my local shop has (they have all 4, which is really nice) I could easily roll the Fusion over with just a hip snap, but couldn't get the All-Water to budge. One thing to keep in mind is that most hybrids have wider seats, so like I said several months ago, a Green Boat might be more ideal, especially if you want to anything beyond class II+.

"Bummer about the flying LL. Guess kayaks can get air without a kite..." LOL!!!

I haven't tried the Fusion. Now I have done 12 miles flat water on the XP9 and it was a joy. Good work-out. Anything longer (with any of these boats) would have me begging for my sea kayak.

Not to get personal but what's your weight? My 11 year old daughter can handle the XP9 fine so I don't think outfitting will be an issue for you. Foot pegs have a good range of settings and the adjustability is very good on LL boats. I get what CJCC is saying about the foot plate -vs- foot pegs. (I recently picked up a LL Remix 59 for surfing and it has the foot plate---love it.) But the pegs on the XP are not bad and you can always upgrade to some aluminum yakimas down the road if it's an issue for you. The main reason these boats have foot pegs instead of the plate is for their flatwater use. Footpegs are more conducive to the alternating pressure with your feet/legs on each side during the stroke.

LL claims the XP9 can handle up to mild class 4. Now, I haven't done that (nothing like that around me). However, about 6 weeks ago I rode the bleeding edge of 2 massive cold fronts on a 150 mile long lagoon and rode 4 foot wave trains for 7 miles (Google Earth'd it and I practice for races on this run all the time). That's a long way in wild water conditions. XP9 was the perfect boat for the job (a bad boat for the job could've meant a spot on the evening news!). *I wouldn't get too big a boat like the green boat (niiiceee boat for sure) IF it means you'll have trouble car-topping or transporting. I prefer a boat that I can shove in the back of the SUV or on the Yakima's up top and hit the water quickly without too much fuss (and of all the boats I have in my garage these are the boats that get THE most usage---my XP9 and DragoRossi slalom boat). What I like about the XP is that if the weather gets dicey it can handle anything thrown at it. Provided you're not a kook it can always get you home with fun along the way for sure.

Not sure if you'd be able to find a used XP---most folks are holding on to theirs.