[[quote:f85bcaf4cb]quote="neilnt"]Ok I give in, you really like your stats so I'll go with them for a while if you can tell me who complied the stats ,where they were complied, how many people were in the survey and ages range of those people.

Otherwise they could just as well be complied in an old folks home with 20 people in the survey group, you know? [/quote:f85bcaf4cb]

You know whats worse than stats... stats w/ sightings, the numbers aren't pulled from the sky... or any other dark places of my body... be assured these numbers are from trauma centers, american heart assocation, etc. double blinded, random, etc., hence making it a level playing field.

Do a google search... check it out.

Keep in mind, I don't like stats. Generally, anyone can prove or disprove anything... In my line of work this is common knowledge.

I[quote:4493d1ea3d] seriously hope that you don't really jump on peoples chests when performing chest compressions as that may be a little bit too much pressure. [/quote:4493d1ea3d][/quote]

Jumping on someones chest, is medical slang/lingo.

Compression generlly run from about 1/2 inch on a infant to about 4 inches or more on big fat people (not paddleres). Most adults about 2 1/2 inches and if your doing right the sweat is running off your face... and its grunt work, not fun. You are actually compressing the heart between the sternum and back bone to circulate the blood to the vital organs. So, to break ribs, and sometime the sternum itself is common.

Ha... their have been individuals who have been to the white light and back with ...yes, CPR. Have sued the people that have saved them because they were injured in the process .... how about them apples

it seems to me that this thread has pretty much run its course...( hint hint)

That works for me... I was only trying to shed some light.

Take care and play safe.

I would suggest taking your WFR. I have had mine for six years. I also have my SRT 2. It does change your perspective on lots of things. I do feel a lot of responsibility to the people I paddle with to come prepared to use my training. In my WFR course we did a river rescue simulation which was only 5 min from town. You could see the McDonalds sign and it still took us over 2 hours to get the two victims who were incapacitated to the parking lot where they could have recieved advanced life support. So techincally that counted as a "wilderness" situation. I know that if something happend at my regular paddle spot then It could easily take 2+ hours to get a person to where a Paramedic would approach them. In Canada they won't go into the water because they are not trained to be rescuers (in that sense). If you are going for a first aid course definitly take a wilderness course. I recommend taking one through Wilderness Medical Associtates (just because that is who I have used for my six years). They are awesome. If you can find a class that has paddling instructors (both of mine did) then they can run simulations that you actually may encounter on the water.

It may be a good idea to know what rescue services are available. It maybe nothing to helo rescue with a hoisting capabilities.
It may aslo be a good idea for self preservation to notify the park or rescue agencies when you arrive and what time you should be expected to come off the river/feature. In case someone or a group isn't accounted for, and the ball will get rolling to find some accountablity for the folks that are MIA... it could be that everyone is having too good of a time or someone is in a pickle.
People shouldn't be shy to reach out for some help... while the getting is good, and not waiting until everyone is at wits end from trying.

the guy who started this thread only posted once. through that whole arguement

interesting point... good eye

I think the rescue techniques mentioned by spin120 are most useful. As for life support, a simple basic life support course should suffice. At the end of the day you're not gonna have a defib to hand or the first line crash drugs so if someones heart has stopped you aint getting it started again untill paramedics arrive. However, if anyone has a chance in a resus, then its a young person drowning in cold water. In these cases i would resus (at the new ratio of 30-2 chest compressions-breaths) for up to 2 hours, people have survived this in extreme cases! (the cold water helps) The bottom line is the level required is basic and everyone taking to the river should have a BLS qualification in my opinion, cos its cheap n easy. The only equipment worth carrying in a boat is a pocket mask-valve ( will protect you from vomit ) or an airway adjunct (ONLY IF QUALIFIED TO DO SO!). If you find yourself in this situation try to stay calm and concentracte on the ABC's and get helpers involved (CPR, if done properly for prolonged periods is knackering!) REmember , however futile it might seem, if you perfuse a young, cold, drowned person's brain till paramedics arrive then you have given a young person with a lot of life ahead of them a chance to live.

For anyone wanting some more information on CPR here are some links for you:

American Heart Association - information on CPR statistics

www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4483

European Resuscitation Council - Guidelines for Resuscitation (BLS) - A rather long document, Pages 13 & 138 - 141 deal with BLS in drowning victims (you have to register but it's all for free)

www.erc.edu/

I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND EVERYONE take some FIRST AID, CPR and a river rescue course. The courses can be fun, and won't you want YOUR paddling buddy to KNOW a thing or two when SH*T happens?
Here in Vancouver, the local club even subsidizes river rescue and St. John's Ambulance first aid stuff (like the one day CPR).
SUGGEST IT TO YOUR CLUB!

OH OH - and Do YOU have a first aid kit!? Does your buddy?

I have my industrial level 2 first aid; and always carry a fully stocked medical kit with me when paddling (in the truck). For the same reason I wore a helmet snowboarding when few others were.

They dont call them accidents because you plan them; better to be prepared I highly recommend taking a course in proper CPR technique as doing it improperly with the victim say; having neck injuries or cracked ribs; could result in you doing a lot more damage than good.



- cheers.

It seems that having a first aid kit in the truck is not really usefull. I can see haveng some large items, like a bp cuff or stethescope, in the truck but it someone is bleeding out "in the truck" doesn't do anyone any good. I suppose if you are just at a park and play then the truck is fine on a run though it could be a long time till your back with the stuff.

my friend she does the same with her whistle she attaches it to her dry bag which stays in the car when shes paddling

Keeping a fully stocked level 2 first aid kit in my boat isnt really feasable. If we are not going to be close to the truck; I carry a small first aid kit with me in the boat with the throw rope. Thankfully Ive never had to use either

That I can see. I don't carry my full expedition kit either. Just a small one with the essentials.

this is a very sensitive topic if/how CPR works...

as mentioned above, it is not a difficult thing to learn...and i believe you can learn it by just reading it...

WFR and other medical courses are obviously highly recommended but as usual...

it fully depends on the person which is doing the FA...is he competent, confident and focused, i think lot of help can be brought to a victim (even if he doesn't hold any certificate)./..

if he's someone which fails the moment there's blood...no any certificate stamped on a weekend course will get you there...


overall, most courses are there to make money!..but many of them are very usefull to assess your abilities and create a level of confidence in you and your employee/team mates...

as for all statistics...they are usually true but...as also said...i believe a 5% chance is a dam lot when you are clinging to your life (or someone elses)...

if you are doing sports, i think it is just sensible to either educate yourself or take courses regarding the first aid, cpr and medication of victims...

to my experience, most people don't even know how to treat small cuts!!..not to talk about broken limbs/jaws or similar...what about broken ribs..?...all those are accidents happening while doing sports...and when in the wilderness, then you need to be selfsufficient...j

i run expeditions 'out there'...the helicopter wont be there within 15minutes...rather think 3days, if the weather permits...so you need/should be able to stitch, fix, treat, medicate hopefully most happenings while there....this needs a lot of learning, reading up, asking other experienced 'doctors' (or real doctors with wilderness experinece), have a extensive first aid kit (takes years to know what to take) and so on...

teachers (That's why the courses cost money) pass on their experiences and i (even while i do not hold a certificate) fully recommend to do so if the possiblity/time is there...

carrying a throwbag/first aid kit doesn't make anyone a rescue personel...

action is what counts....

The Basics- CPR by itself is extrememly ineffective. NOTE: I said BY ITSELF.

CPR is the primary care step for helping cardiac arrest patients survive by providing the body with at least some oxygen (CPR is two-thirds less effective than normal breathing and circulation. Look it up, those are all real numbers.) until ALS units arrive. Hence, it is important for everyone to have current training on how to perform CPR, especially those doing high-risk activities, like running whitewater where the chances of needing those skills is higher than normal.

CPR buys time. Brain damage occurs 4-6 minutes without oxygen, with Biological death occuring at around 10 minutes. By performing CPR, a person can prolong the time between arrest and permanant damage to allow for EMS to arrive.

Someone mentioned CPR possibly doing more harm than good; there are two points I'd like to make on that-
1. Patient in arrest. Not doing CPR=CERTAIN death. Doing CPR=POSSIBLE death. Alive with some cracked or separated ribs is still ALIVE. CPR is almost certainly going to separate or crack ribs, especially in older patients.
2. CPR can do significant harm IF- ther person performing it is NOT properly trained, and doing what they saw on TV. Too high and you can lacerate the lungs with broken ribs. Too low and you can lacerate the liver by breaking the xyphoid process. This is why training is important!

My qualifications? I have current healthcare provider CPR certification and First Responder certification, and am currently in school for EMT-P (paramedic) certification, and an AS in Emergency Health Service.

This thread has got me thinking about first aid kit. Now i'm only a medical student (due to qualify soon) and don't claim to be a resus expert (although i fancy specialising in anaesthetics) but i do take part in a variety of sports and expeditions on land and water and have taken part in resusitations both in hospital and out on the street. As a result i've been thinking about what kit is appropriate to take to the place where i am going, my means of travel and my training level and i hope my thoughts might help others decide on what to bring.

Park and play: If you are at a centre that has good access for vehicles and it is easy to get to the casualty in a safe way, then only the most basic of equipment may be needed, (infact you're only gonna get a little bit of kit in a playboat). Triangular bandages, supportive bandages and the plasters that you see in 1st aid kits are pretty pointless here as you can just sit with the casualty untill help arrives rather than lashing up an ankle so they can hobble to safety . You can also do a bodge-it e.g. use a coat as a broad arm sling or any other material to hand. One exception to this might be an absorbent dressing, like the ones soldiers tape to their belt kit. These, if opened in the right way, provide a sterile dressing to a wound that can hold about a pint of blood, they are really easy to use and can provide alot of pressure to a wound helping to stem the flow. This is how most soldiers would treat a bullet wound to a comrade in the field. The only other dressing you might possibly need in addition to this (in this scenario) is something like steristrips to hold a wound together, but again you can bodge-it and use superglue if you have it (i have this on good authority from a surgeon). So thats about the only dressings i would have. But add to this at least one pair of rubber gloves for your own protection.

Next the A,B,C's, this sounds simple but it is the most fundamentally important routine to go through in any casualty whether you are a first aider on the street or head of the royal college of anaesthetists (the latter group will just do it better) and some simple, cheap gear will make it safer and more efficient. Firstly some sort of resus aid that protects you from your casualty by a one way valve is important and also something that helps to generate a seal over the casualty's face. For this i would recommend the \"pocket mask\" (available on the net). This fully covers the patient's mouth and nose and provides a one way valve for you to blow through. Cheaper and smaller alternatives would be a resus face sheild (e.g. ambukey face shield) this is small enough to fit on a key fob and provides a one way protective valve but doesn't form a tight seal round the patient's face.

Now you may have noticed i have skipped A for airway and gone straight to breathing. This is because this refers to the use of equipment to protect and maintain the airway which requires training not routinely done as part of basic first aid courses. They should not be used by anyone without them having tried it on at least a manakin previously. They include a plastic tube that sits in the mouth and holds the tongue of an unconscious patient free of the airway (called a guedel) , a tube that sits in the nostril of a patient and gets access to the airway that way (a nasopharyngeal tube) and a tube that is passed thgrough the mouth and sits just above the voice box held in place by an inflated rubber cuff (called a laryngeal mask airway L.M.A. or as some paramedics say: \"a fanny on a stick\" ). Now all this involves training that you need practical experience for and can't be learnt from a book so unless you are an EMT, paramedic, doctor or nurse then you probably shouldn't carry it.

C for circulation, if someone is bleeding a lot then the first thing for a first aider to do is to stop it! (assuming it is not internal) This is best done with the field dressing i mentioned earlier. Other methods (if the bleeding is heavy eg arterial) include tourniquets and application of pressure to specific points e.g. the groin for a bleeding leg (where the femoral artery runs). What i would say about these methods is that i don't know the current first aid guidlines on who can do them and in what circumstances, what i would say is that if the patient is painting the wall with blood then I would stop it by any means possible.
In addition to this, if you are trained you can give fluid resus which requires you to cannulate the patient and feed fluid (isotonic saline) directly into their sirculation.


I think i better stop! This has turned into a mamoth posting! And to think i was going to discuss sea kayaking expedition first aid kit! In summary.

Field dressing, pocket mask, steristrips, superglue, rubber gloves if you know some first aid, if you know more consider adding in cannulas, guedel airway, nasopharyngeal, LMA's, 1litre of saline, tourniquet. (if you are bringing them then you should know about sizes!)

These might seem excessive (and probably are) but can save a person from the things that kill them first (compromised airways). The bandages etc are not important unless you have to move someone or make them comfortable for extended time periods. Let the paramedics sort the non-life threatening stuff out when they arrive. PHEW!!!!!!

Sorry, that was way too long!