During the past 5 years, I somehow ended up using the back deck roll only. It came to the point that I didn't even know if I could still do a 'normal' roll at all.

And so I thought it would be a good idea to start practicing the normal roll again. I started on a shallow part of the river where I often do some fresh-up back deck rolls and was unpleasantly surprised when I hit my head. And so I went to a bit deeper spot and tucked forward as well as I could... Bang, another blow!


It's amazing how much more depth you need for a 'normal' roll... Twice as much it seemed.

So I think I'll save that traditional one and only use it when it really makes sense, e.g. as a recovery from a srew-up...

It may be true that your face is better protected in the forward position, but not hitting any rocks at all still seems a lot safer
Plus you can actually protect your face during a back deck roll as well with your arm.

Any thoughts?

never had problems with back dek rol, but my old helmet met the rocks in SB (#2), now i've got another

my helmet was destroyed for the half, i had luky only head atches, but a semi destructed helmet makes you thinking about beying les deep in the water. and when you dont use a bach deck roll, you can still break your back, this possibility is much les with a BDR

In my opinon, the traditional roll is a lot easier than the back deck roll... For me the traditional roll works a lot better and will get me out of any trouble at all... But then i started off the traditional way and i've been sticking to it for most the time....

so what's a roll for..???

guess we want to get out of trouble..and that as fast as possible...so any roll is good as long as it is the fastest way to get up...so if i end up on the back..i roll up from there...if i end up on the left..i roll up from there...if i end up on the etc., etc.,....

but...i do roll from the front usually, as in holes, falls, drops i most of the time intend to go in leaning fwd, reducing my size and so, usually end up with a fwd roll...

i personally feel, that the process (while creeking/river running) is much safer and wont expose you as much to the possibilities...i do know, that leaning back (if done good) you will be less in the water but...what if there's that single rock sticking out and you eat this wiht your chin, going down with some speed....i do prefer to go out and buy a new helmet instead of visiting the hospital and get plastic surgery...!!!

so IMO it is the way you end up and get your soft flesh out of the water asap and let the plastic do the shredding...

He's got a point... What does it matter what you do as long as it gets you out of a tight spot...

i personally use the back deck roll when im on a wave, or in a hole becase its fast enough to keep me from being washed out

however i still prefer the "normal" roll

i learnt a front deck roll first and could not work out the back deck roll but strangely, the first roll i ever did on white water was a back deck roll and from then i have used that out of habit, i find for playboating it is the quickest roll as i am set up almost before i hit the water and all you need then is a good flick, with increasingly low feather blades i find it easier to backdeck roll because that is where my blades are nearest to each time i capsize and so i dont have to move them through the water. my paddles just end up on the foam pile and i push off that
i have been stuck in a shallow weir sidewayss and although my knuckles took a bash nothing else did

...and sometimes the back-deck-roll is the perfect thing for where you are.

I find that when I'm in a combat situation that I'm not too proud to use any of the rolls I know how to do.
I often go straight for the back-deck roll when I'm being flipped, simply because it's the fastest roll to set up and often when I'm flipping, it's because I've caught an edge in oncoming water and I need to roll up on the other side anyhow.
That said, sometimes the water I'm sweeping against is moving with the grain of my sweep, or is moving downward, or doing something bizarre, and the back-deck-first-try fails- in that situation, you're just about perfectly set up to reverse your sweep and do a 'normal' roll.

This happened just a couple weeks ago- after not making it up on top of a particularly powerful reaction curler on Robe Canyon last week, I found myself power-fed into a twisting seam where my first two roll attempts met with 'funny' water- the first, because my paddle blade was on the other side of a ripping interface, the second, because in the time it took me to miss the first, I ended up pasted against the river wall in the rapid's namesake feature(called face-plant). I ended up oh-so-stylishly hand-rolling against the rock.

I think in the end there's no 'right' or 'wrong' roll- but there do seem to be some stereotypes about the safety of the back-deck-roll. I use it because it's fast, and fast is often safer than not-fast.
Done correctly, it's no harder on your shoulders.

for more: www.chrisj.winisp.net/articles/backdeckroll.htm

if i'm up.

im happy

I think everyone should know a back-deck because it is a much faster roll that always gets "me" up. I use it almost exclusivly. Hiting my face isn't a big deal because my head isn't under the water and my elbows are protecting it.

yep im also a fan of the back deck tho ive found it puts the rest of my strokes aout when braceing i have this bad habit of leaning back now thanks to my back deck roll but i can do so quick that im up befor i no
because i can set up befor goin over in the hole


tho if im being worked i try and use a regualr role as im more likly to flush it also depends on the boat im using

i would rather use the normal roll but if i am playing in a wave/hole i will do the back deck roll

hi guys, you should definatley define between play rolls and creek (down river) rolls...

while playing or on easy water (as long as it is deep enough), any roll is good...and usually, i do backroll when i am playing (somehow i end up leaning back trying most of the moves)...

while going down river, it is a better idea to stick to a combat roll and try to be fwd...as you will usually be anyway...

as mentioned in my previous post, obviously any roll is the prefered roll as long as you end up in this position...

by the way, i'd like to go kayaking with the guy whos' head is never under water when rolling...

do you mean the blow up clown from one of the LL videos ... or the blow up clow in one of the forums

joking

My Backdeck roll is b8er than my Normal but i still have the old skool roll down pat so i dunno wutt to tell you jeroen....

I agree with Shiva, Backdeck rolls work great when playing as they are so fast. However creeking on shallow volume rivers a forward roll is much safer, if you tuck in! It's amazing how many people just hang upside down and then go buy a full face helmet or a face cage after they've been handed a face full of rock.

Not going over in the first place is the best technique of all though!

Neil

www.swiftwaterrescue.at

I usually do back deck rolls. I reckon the fastest roll is the safest. So, it depents in which body position you tip over: If you already leaning back, it doesn’t make sense to get your body in a forward position because this would take your face in risk. Leaning forward when you go over is odd, it means you forgot the high brace. In neutral position a front deck roll might be an option for safety reasons. But I am twice as fast with my back deck roll – less time under water = safer roll.

[quote:a34d0e5d12] Leaning forward when you go over is odd, it means you forgot the high brace. [/quote:a34d0e5d12]

High brace is not always a good option, in my oppinion it is better to just do the roll and not fight to stay up right. When you are leaning back and high bracing or god forbit sculling you might have some shit coming your way.

as stated by a couple of other geezers the bd roll is best used in big water where you dont have to worry about clearing the surface with your paddle and regular roll for use with screw ups on tricks. but the best way to keep all skills keen is to ....well practice.

After having re-organiced my face on some rocks in the steep and shallow stuff, I would have to say if you want to be like this when you come out of the water be carefull of the back decker, at least on the rocky sections.

But what surprises me is that breaking a tooth and taking a general kick ass beating, I did manage to keep my cool and stay in combat mode. In the dentist chair having the rest of my root pulled out I had no cool and just wanted to cry like a play boater

I've seen peoples shoulders dislocated in back deck rolls but I've never had any problem, I think if you have a knowledge of different rolls then you'll do what ever roll is closest to the positioning of your paddles. Such as the T-Draw roll, usually only a jokey kinda roll but I've found my paddles upright in the warter so instead of setting up for a normal roll I just do a T-Draw, only under water, it works suprisingly well within about 2 pulls you're nearly completely up.

[quote:501a612b4b="Ashley"] ... Such as the T-Draw roll, usually only a jokey kinda roll but I've found my paddles upright in the warter so instead of setting up for a normal roll I just do a T-Draw, only under water, it works suprisingly well within about 2 pulls you're nearly completely up.[/quote:501a612b4b]

What is a T-Draw roll?!!!
Pls educate me...

id rather do a normal roll, but my boat rolls better w/ a sweep roll.

[quote:34f5eab9a5="shivaoutdoors"]
by the way, i'd like to go kayaking with the guy whos' head is never under water when rolling...[/quote:34f5eab9a5]

Let's go paddling! I actually don't backdeck roll too much although I'm starting to use it a little more since I got into playboating but I can do the dry head backdeck roll fairly well (at least on flatwater!).

Here's a clip of me backdeck rolling... www.wisconsinpaddlers.org/videos/backdeck%20rolls.mpg

obviously is it possible to roll (mostly only in flatwater) with a quick backdeckroll...but, i think the discussion was about safety, especially in a challenging river environment....so to say rocky, fast water....

overall i still believe, that usually a front roll will be best when in above mentioned environment....but as said before...what ever gets you up fastest at the moment of capsize i think is the way you should roll up...left, underwater roll, t-draw, backdeck etc., etc.,....

too much time wasted already on thinking about which one could be the best possible roll in which situation...basically...JUST ROLL UP..

[quote:8071340f2a="shivaoutdoors"]obviously is it possible to roll (mostly only in flatwater) with a quick backdeckroll...but, i think the discussion was about safety, especially in a challenging river environment....so to say rocky, fast water....

overall i still believe, that usually a front roll will be best when in above mentioned environment....but as said before...what ever gets you up fastest at the moment of capsize i think is the way you should roll up...left, underwater roll, t-draw, backdeck etc., etc.,....

too much time wasted already on thinking about which one could be the best possible roll in which situation...basically...JUST ROLL UP.. [/quote:8071340f2a]

Most definitely the fastest roll that gets you up safely is the best roll. When I flip, I don't setup or think I'm gonna do a backdeck or a sweep or a c-to-c, I just reach out a paddle and roll up from whatever position I happen to be in. In technical boulder garden stuff, I do tend to tuck forward more for the inevitable bang on the head rather than backdeck rolling but that's just because I'm probably needlessly scared of breaking my nose or something. (I know the forearms protect the face and i'm on the water surface... but still!)

Typically, I think the most appropriate toll is the one that will take the least amount of time and effort.

If you are in the middle of a stroke and you go over a normal roll is faster.
If you miss a brace, a normal roll is faster.
If you are trying a move and you flip end over end, backdeck roll is faster.

If you seem to think the backdeck is always faster, you probably are giving up to easily instead of bracing so you tuck and backdeck roll. I keep the top of my head out of the water when I backdeck roll. If you make the boat pivot around you, and not you around the boat, you can almost keep your head dry.

I also like to practice the elbow roll. The front blade of the paddle goes in the bend of your elbow and you do the same motion. I see no use for this unless you bust your hand or something.

Anyhow... I feel there are many gimmicks. Generally, I think the Regular, combat, and reverse screw-roll, are the most efficient and safe, especially for the prevention of shoulder dislocation. If you paddle more heavy or violent water the backdeck roll is dangerous as it puts you shoulder in a position of least stability and weakness, a bad combination.

Check out this cool link for neat kayak info and networking:
groups.myspace.com/FHIkayakgroup

Peace,
Boe (Whitewaterules)