Hi ppl

Ive been trying to do the double pump but i cant seem to do it. Should i be rocking the boat back and forward until i get vertical or should i be doing it in one go, So it would be back then forward and then vertical?

I can do the plowing ender quite well, is this as good as the double pump or do i need to master the double pump. Can you do cartwheels from the power ender once i can bow stall?

This is all for flat water

Any help would be great

Jay

Oh boy, here we go again.

Okay so here is what you will need. Grab some lube, papaer towels, and a good magazine.

To doubble pump you have to have the right angle, lead with your head, and you gotta put her on edge and just commit to it, Don't be afraid to capsize, it happens when you blow your seal, you may get wet, just roll with it. Concentrate, relax, and have a party in her face.

Saddle-Up,
Whitewaterules

Would it help me to move my seat more forward. My main problem is getting the bow under. Is it easer to do it with some speed.

plowing is fine and you can iniate carthweels from it but you will probably wnat to learn to double pump anyways becasue its veryy useful in a hole. Moving the seat forward would defenitly help. there is a huge forum thing somewhere thats compleyely devoted to double pump before it degenerated( see above:) that should be helpful if you can find it.

robmeister wrote:

there is a huge forum thing somewhere thats compleyely devoted to double pump before it degenerated( see above:) that should be helpful if you can find it.

mean this one?

playak.com/index.php?option=com_joomlabo...atid=109&id=7481

Jason,
Here is what you need to do. Your problem is not getting your weight forward. In fact doing this makes it so that you can't double pump. Sound strange? The key to double pumping is not throwing your weight around. In fact, the less you throw your weight, the better you will be able to execute multiple moves.

The Breakdown:
Getting the boat on edge to double pump is exactly as it sounds, ON EDGE! Your double pump is not dependent on leaning forward, but on getting the boat on EDGE. If you boat is too flat, you can move your seat forward all you want, the boat will still just slap the water and bounce back. You MUST put the boat on EDGE so that it can CUT through the water. The force required to do this is minimal, really. So get the boat on edge, so it can SLICE through the water and not slap the water.

If you lean forward it will do two things:
1. Flatten out the hull so you slap the bow on top of the water.
2. Force you to then throw your weight back the other way on the next move to compensate.

How do you get on edge? First, assume you will be capsizing as you find this balance point:

1) Get your arms away from your boat when you Double Pump, this offers
a better support-bracket.
2) Drop your edge about 55-65 degrees (in order to SLICE)
3) Lift up on your feet as you do your Bow Initiation (Forward Sweep).
4) Swing your feet back under you as you initiate the Reverse Sweep part of
your Double Pump (it is tempting to stand up, DO NOT stand up).
5) Once your feet are under your hips, you can finally lean forward, but
don’t stand up. Don’t lean forward until your feet are below you.

What you are trying to do here is keep your body neutral. Make the boat rotate around your center of gravity not your boats. How do you do this? LEAD WITH YOUR HEAD. Your shoulders, spine, hips, and boat will ALWAYS follow your head. If you lead with your head, all will fall into place. In fact, I could have just answered your message with \"Lead with your head.\" You probably would have figured out the rest on your own. Anyhow… that is a step-by-step breakdown of the Double Pump.

Let me know how you do. Good Luck!

Saddle-Up,
Whitewaterules

Hi ppl

Thanks 4 all the help. When i pratice edging should i hold my paddle in the air. I shouldnt use it 4 support when i edge should i ? Cheers

Jay

Whitewater rules- You dont think putting the seat forward helps with the Double pump? Ill agree that for carthweeling it makes the balance funny, but for purly getting up on your bow i think it makes it easier. Helped me anyway.

To Jason:
Yes you should use your paddle for support as you will be leaning away from the boat. Also, don't overuse the paddle, so that you can free it up for your next move. Once you have learned to do your move well, work on being more efficient and using the paddle less.

To Robmeister:
It may help you cheat... but in the end you are only cheating yourself because it will make more advanced paddling more difficult. I say for playboating, having your weight centered over the boat or a bit behind center is best. But that's only my opinion and everyone has their own preference.

Saddle-Up,
Boe

thanks again for the help. Should i twist my body or flip my hips to help get the kayak vertical. Im getting the bow under but pops out. Cheers

Jay

You are probably not far enough on edge from the start. Get the boat on its side at least 65-70 degrees so it will slice the bow through the water. Commit to it and don't be afraid to tip over in the process. You have to lift up on your feet and slam them back down while keeping the momentum until your feet are under you. Better to overcommit and tip than to undercommit.

Just Do it,
Whitewaterules

Hi ppl

Just a question, How long did it take to learn the double pump.

It took me one session to learn the double pump. The key is, just go for it and don't be afraid to drop too much edge and capsize. What realy helped me was consentrating on slaming my feet back down after I pulled them up. You must rock the nose up off the water so that as it falls you have the momentum to keep it going until it passes under you and you are vertical.

Good luck,
Whitewaterules

when you put in you reverse stroke and swing you weight into the water your paddle should be parallel to the water pretty much in the same posistion as for settleing up for a sweep roll.

I've also found that it helps to learn by initiating it backwards. it is usually much easier to engage the stern than the bow, and once you get the feel for how you need to be edging, you can begin to link them, and wouk on it forwards (That's how I learned, anyways). Another tip that brrooke winger showed me would be to practice rock- a -babies, where you put your boat on edge with your paddle in the water, and rock back and forth until you get vertical. This also helps you get a feel for the edges, shich I found to be the hardest part. Also remember to stay looking rorwards like you were in a hole. This keeps your body from rotating and doing somewhat of a flatwater kickflip.( Ijust say this because i had a big problem with that). Hope this helped. Good luck!

Thanks for all the help. Ill try practicing rocking it on edge untill i get vertical. Is it easyer to rock the boat back and forward than getting some speed then trying the double pump?
If i was do the double pump backwards and i started the back stroke on my right side, i would drop my right edge woundlt I? Thanks Again

Jay

I think you have the right idea. for initiating it backwards tou will want to start backpaddling, then if you are doing it right handed put about a 45 degree edge to the right and do a back sweep on the right. this should put your bow under. Now as the bow is under as far as it is going to go, put about 70 degrees of edge still on your right side, do a forward slamstroke with your right paddleblade, and throw your boat around. It will take some practice, but once you have the initiation down, you can work on continuing cartwheels off it. Just remember to lead with your head.
As far as rocking back and forth, it is a good drill to help get used to your edges, but you will still want to learn the double- pump, and this will help get your technique down. Happy paddling!

Hi

I think im at the most edge i can be without the paddle in the water b4 i capsize. But my stern wont come up, my brother said i got it as high as / so three quaters of the way. Do you think i need to edge more, but im sure that i cant edge anymore as i would capsize. Any help would be great. Thanks Alot

Jay

Unless you want to do a clean cartwheel you use your paddle for support. It should be parallel(-ish, I don't get it fully parallel myself, that's bad technique) to your boat.

BTW: it sounds like you have your seat too far back. It is probably easy to get your bow up but hard to get it under? I used to have that problem all the time with short boats. Being 6'4\" myself I had to look hard for a short boat that allowed me to trim the boat properly. Check if the tail is still above the water when you are simply sitting in the boat. If it is not your seat probably has to mvoe forward a bit. Once your boat is properly trimmed it should be a lot easier to get the bow under.

HI mate thanks 4 all the help. Ive all reday moved my seat forward as much as i can. Since i did move the seat it helped me more. My bow looks like it goes under quite a bit, but its not enought. Really being a pain

Thanks again

My boat is a wavesport super ez its about 213cm long and 222 litres of volume i think. Would this make it harder to do the double pump. How long did it take you too learn it. Would it be easyer to do a double on a wave? Thanks again

Jay

Jason, it's not the seat, seriously. Keep practicing.

For one thing, practice is allways good. It took me quite a while to get the hang of it and I still have trouble making the correct angle but again, practice makes perfect.

For learning the double pump or cartwheeling, especially on the flat the Big EZ is quite a big boat, unless you are a really big person.

I am 6'4\" and weigh 82 kilo's. I learned the trick in an old BlissStick Blitz Special with 170 liter volume. Now I paddle a Fluid Flirt Medium of 195 liters or something.

BTW: I've got two books on playboating at home, the old Ken Whiting book and one by EJ. They tell different things regarding technique on flatwater cartwheeling. Ken Whiting says to stand on your footbraces to use your body weight whereas EJ tells you not to do this. I found that I prefer to use my footbraces although I can see why EJ says not to: it makes it easier to twist the boat and not keep it stable.

That's my main problem at the moment: coming from a (flatwater) canoepolo background (20+ years, so I've been around in a boat ) I tend to flick my hips to make sure I end up upright in the boat (in kind of a reflex, like I want to be able to keep paddling and play ball). So my 2nd end tends to be a lot less tilted and my 3rd end is almost flat I'm going to have a pool course this winter to get that problem sorted out

On a wave is it easyer to do a double pump ? Thanks for the advice ppl

Jay

Rasing the seat up with some foam padding will also help.
It raises your center of gravity and makes the boat sit deeper in the water.
Propper outfiting so your not slideing around is also important. It lets you transfer all your energy to the boat.
Aside from that lift the bow up high, slam it in and comit.
If the boat goes flat not enough edge, if you fall on your face too much edge.

Still havnt got it yet, ill keep on trying. Is it easyer to do a double pump on waves than on flat water ? Would it be better for me to learn on a wave or better on flat water. But i still have problem with the double pump.

Cheers ppl

Jay

Well perhaps,
check to make sure your hip pads are snug and your foot rest is close enough to lock you in. If this is not the case, double pumping is significantly harder. You must not feel loose in your outfitting.

Keep on keeping on,
Whitewaterules

i was practicing double pumping for ages and seeming to almost get it but there was something holding me back. it wasnt my seat height or anythign

i was paddling flat with some friends andwe all started trying and one said make your initial stroke a lot wider a way from the boat, i did this followed by a close revers stroke and got up instanly. for me this was what was holding me back


but also try some other things

what i was always told was to move with your head aparently thats one of the most important things.


but it justtakes practice.

mike

Ill try that. Was you doing it motion less or was you on the move. I seem to be close to doing it, but its my bow not getting in low enought. Ill keep on trying

Cheers PPl

Jay

practice practice practice

an easy way to know if you are close or not is
When you DON'T get the bow under, are you falling on your head and having to roll up? (that would be good)
or are you just recovering with the boat flat? (lacks committment)

Yup. As said above, you really want to get that boat up on edge.

Fully commit to driving your legs around. Pump them up, then pump them down into the water.

Try this in the horizontal plane first. Reach around, all the way around, twisting your body, shoulders, torso, everything to look at your drain plug.

plant your paddle by your stern and then let everything untwist as you do an exaggerated reverse sweep stroke and your paddle sweeps out, away from your stern in a nice arch, and ends up landing at your feet/bow.

NOW, did you do that all with your paddle? Or was there some element of your torso unwinding AND YOUR FEET wanting to drive towards your paddle?
This is the key!!! You're really just planting your paddle and driving your feet towards it.

Try that, and think about driving your feet for a day. It's a minor point in text, but a major skill in the water!