Hello!

Do you have any idea off getting new Dagger boats (=Agent) to Europe, better to Scandinavia, without needing to pay that penalty payment Dagger Europe is demanding? It is very sad, that Dagger boats cost here almost 30 percent more (1300 euros!) than any other boats, also Wavesport boats are much cheaper (around 1050 - 1100 euros); but in US the prices are same! So, if I do want to have an American Dagger boat, but I don`t want to support any Brittish company in between (that takes about 200 euros by boat, and makes it a lot slowlier to get a boat here Scandinavia), do I have any good alternative choice? Or do I just have to get a Wavesport boat?

Being in the kayak importation business - but with nothing to do with Dagger - I would suggest you have a chat with your local politician about the price of kayaks being so dear in Europe.

Retail prices in the States are usually excluding local taxes or VAT as we like to call it. Local taxes in the States usually tend to be much lower also than VAT rates in Europe (esp. in the northern countries). As well as VAT, anything imported into Europe is also charged a duty % depending on the type of product it is.

Customers in America also don't need to pay for their kayaks to be shipped across the Atlantic.

If I was to have a real complaint about the cost of kayaks being imported from the States it would be that the exchange rate from euro to dollar has been rising in the euro's favour for some time now, and yet no saving has been passed onto the consumer:ask:

Did you read my post? Why, for what reason, shipping Dagger boats cost so much more than shipping for example LL or WaveSport boats? I think, that it`s not the shipping cost, it is something else, like Dagger Europe! I can`t find any reason, why American boats come to Scandinavia via England?

LL boats are imported to Finland via SystemX in England... Yet they are more affordable than Dagger boats. I think the biggest rip-off is that the Jackson kayaks, which are considerably cheaper than other brands in USA are in par with other boats in Europe. A $900 boat costs 1100€... Go figure.

Put it this way:
How come british retailers oftentimes get the dealerships over let´s say ANY OTHER mainland Europe company ?
Necky playboats are more or less the same way and I´m sure you can think of other examples as well.

My opinion is that EVERY major brand should be dealt through Germany.
Why ? Because they are organized, reliable and fast from a customers point of view.

Solution: buy used.

For any new Wave Sport or Dagger boat we pay R7250 which is 1022 US Dollars or 775 Euros. Thats not bad I reckon. The Fluids are quite a bit cheaper seeing as though they don't have to travel across the ocean. So if Tuomas says a LL is 1100 Euros! WoW. And people complain about boat prices here...

i dont know much about your problem kivng in the us myself, but a couple of solutions would be to just by used boats( i always do this anyway) and just see if you can order from an american websight to get our prices.

here are a couple.
www.outdoorplay.com
www.coloradokayaksupply.com
www.nantahaloutdoorcenter.com
The shipping might be rediculous, but its worth a shot

kuuskoski wrote:

Solution: buy used.

Just did. It was a very sweet deal

Ok in America you can get this

www.coloradokayak.com/Project-Freestyle-...sc=2&category=92

for a 1200 euros


And this alpinaction.it/index.php?option=com_cont...;id=70&Itemid=48

is what i am offered in my country:puke:





Lets pray for a changes

Well if you want revenge start your own kayak company.

Kayaker0678 wrote:

Well if you want revenge start your own kayak company.

Thanks for suggestion. Dont have the skills

AdrianTregoning wrote:

For any new Wave Sport or Dagger boat we pay R7250 which is 1022 US Dollars or 775 Euros. Thats not bad I reckon. The Fluids are quite a bit cheaper seeing as though they don't have to travel across the ocean. So if Tuomas says a LL is 1100 Euros! WoW. And people complain about boat prices here...

indeed that does seem a good price. here in the uk new wave sport and dagger boats are 800 pounds. 1200? euros. we to are getting ripped off somewhere along the line.

fancy sending me a L fluid flirt over?

I don't think that having boats imported via germany is going to make them any cheeper at all! Blue and white is the importer for germany and the boats cost the same there.

Flying to the states and then bringing a boat back would be another option if it weren't for the US airlines making a big fuss about flying with boats.

I've ordered some equipment from the sates before and it ended up being more expensive with postage and import duty.

With anything that gets imported via a middle man (who wants to ern some money) things are going to get more expensive. I guess at the end of the day buying a different brand is the only thing that lets you make your point.

Or buy a used boat which ends up being cheeper anyway.

Good luck with the search,

Don´t think so ? I know so..

5 years ago I bought a G-Force from Blue & White (www.outdoorcenter.de)
It was one of the first ones to arrive to Europe.
Price was very competitive with the extra 100 euros added to transportation
GER-FIN.(Thanks Heidi !)

It was one phonecall and after 3 days the UPS was knocking at the door..


complicated ain´t it ?

Its the same bullshit here in ireland.
I.ve been shopping around for a new creeker. Usually buy dagger wavesport or Pyrahna but not anymore.
Been test driving a couple of boats and shocked at the prices.
dagger mamba 1200 euro
Wavesport habitat 1200 euro
Test drove the Pyranha Burn the other day and although the boat paddles lovely the fittings are flimsy slippery and crap and they want 1200 euro
The funny thing is that Blisstick, fluid and to a lesser extent Eskimo get shipped further and all retail under 1000 euro here.
The biggest piss take being Pyranha. Produced right next door.
Apparently its what the market will bare.
Guys i really think everyone should \"bare\" a little less

rant over

In Spain some prices:

For all the pyranha boats Rapid + equipment: 825 eurs. Connect30 1025

Dagger:
Nomad, rx prescription, Mamba: 999 eurs.
Juice: 839.

Go to the sun:)

Agent, 999 eurs.

KaitsuH wrote:

Hello!

Do you have any idea off getting new Dagger boats (=Agent) to Europe, better to Scandinavia, without needing to pay that penalty payment Dagger Europe is demanding? It is very sad, that Dagger boats cost here almost 30 percent more (1300 euros!) than any other boats, also Wavesport boats are much cheaper (around 1050 - 1100 euros); but in US the prices are same! So, if I do want to have an American Dagger boat, but I don`t want to support any Brittish company in between (that takes about 200 euros by boat, and makes it a lot slowlier to get a boat here Scandinavia), do I have any good alternative choice? Or do I just have to get a Wavesport boat?

Well, Dragorossi's new Performance Outfitting kayaks are 749 Euro!

www.dragorossi.net/drboard/viewtopic.php?t=439

But in response to your post's point of the differance of price of kayaks, Honda's cost more then Fiats. BMW's cost more than Honda's. Ferrari's cost more than BMW.

All are cars with 4 wwheels, and an engine. Some cost more than others. Complainig that one brand is more than another is silly. Not all kayaks are built the same. Not all cost the same. Havning a scale to choose from in kayak prices, quality, fitting etc is as good as anything else. Variety is the spice of life.

Dragorossi's ELITE outfitting is 1200 Euro. They are the best you can get. Also the most expensive. Daggers are a step down from that. Wave sport another step down. Etc etc... You buy what you can afford/feel is worth it.

In our case we have both - the Cheapist, bare bones outfitting on the market at 749 Euro, in a performing shell, or the most complete system going with the elite outiftting at 1200 Euro, or anything in beween. Choice is a great thing

Corran

Jackson kayaks are about 800 Euro in the USA and 1150 Euro in Europe. Liquid Logic are about 1100 USD in the USA and 1100Euro in europe (suggested rtail, not the actual selling price. IN both cases, the actual selling price is much less). WHY Jackson kayaks go up in price more than 2x any other brand imported into europe I'm not sure. A little strange I agree.

As far as WHY boats are different in price to begin with... its like anything else in the world. NOT ALL things cost the same. If you play soccer, you can get expensive shoes, or cheap ones. An expensive ball or a cheap one. They are still shoes and a ball, but some cost more than others. Same goes for kayaks, mountain bikes, ski's etc.

Corran

corran wrote:

KaitsuH wrote:

Hello!

Do you have any idea off getting new Dagger boats (=Agent) to Europe, better to Scandinavia, without needing to pay that penalty payment Dagger Europe is demanding? It is very sad, that Dagger boats cost here almost 30 percent more (1300 euros!) than any other boats, also Wavesport boats are much cheaper (around 1050 - 1100 euros); but in US the prices are same! So, if I do want to have an American Dagger boat, but I don`t want to support any Brittish company in between (that takes about 200 euros by boat, and makes it a lot slowlier to get a boat here Scandinavia), do I have any good alternative choice? Or do I just have to get a Wavesport boat?

Well, Dragorossi's new Performance Outfitting kayaks are 749 Euro!

www.dragorossi.net/drboard/viewtopic.php?t=439

But in response to your post's point of the differance of price of kayaks, Honda's cost more then Fiats. BMW's cost more than Honda's. Ferrari's cost more than BMW.

All are cars with 4 wwheels, and an engine. Some cost more than others. Complainig that one brand is more than another is silly. Not all kayaks are built the same. Not all cost the same. Havning a scale to choose from in kayak prices, quality, fitting etc is as good as anything else. Variety is the spice of life.

Dragorossi's ELITE outfitting is 1200 Euro. They are the best you can get. Also the most expensive. Daggers are a step down from that. Wave sport another step down. Etc etc... You buy what you can afford/feel is worth it.

In our case we have both - the Cheapist, bare bones outfitting on the market at 749 Euro, in a performing shell, or the most complete system going with the elite outiftting at 1200 Euro, or anything in beween. Choice is a great thing

Corran

Thanks for taking the time to get in some free advertising Corran. As for complaining about price's being just silly. Well you as a supplier would like that wouldn't you.
Your product arrived in ireland not too long ago with a nice high price tag. Did you sell any ? No, apparently the market couldn't bare it. but you are right about one thing variety is the spice off life so re branding and repricing may work.
Its nice to see what my fellow kayaker's are paying around the world for similar products. It helps me figure out which manufacturers or their supplier aren't pulling the piss here in ireland.

You get a dragorossi (from Strie Stommer), which paddles better anyway

Corran

brenmaster wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to get in some free advertising Corran. As for complaining about price's being just silly. Well you as a supplier would like that wouldn't you.
Your product arrived in ireland not too long ago with a nice high price tag. Did you sell any ? No, apparently the market couldn't bare it. but you are right about one thing variety is the spice off life so re branding and repricing may work.
Its nice to see what my fellow kayaker's are paying around the world for similar products. It helps me figure out which manufacturers or their supplier aren't pulling the piss here in ireland.

Its not free. My time costs money. You're paid for your time at work. This is my work

Anyway, to answer your post... you'd be surprised to know that we make LESS money on the fully outiftted Elite system at 1200 EUro than we make on the Performance base system at 749 euro. Our profit margin is about 17% LOWER on the Elite system than what I made at Riot, and Riots profit margin is pretty standard in the industry.

The price has nothing to do with \"price setting\", but rather what the lowest possible price we could sell the boat for, given all the costs involved with making it. All that stuff costs a lot of money that goes into a boat. And just as you can buy a Dell computer for $700, so a Toshiba might cost you $2500. But you get what you pay for.

Now, whether you can afford the Toshiba is another thing all together, but you'd be silly to argue that the $700 dell is a better quality computer.

The sames gors for ski,s mountain bikes, kayaks. In fact EVERYTHING in life. Better quality costs more. Period. If you can;t afford the better quality item, thats fine, but to knock that item because you can;t afford it is silly. Imaiine calling up BMW and complaing about the price of the Z4, and telling them you can get a Honda Civic for half that price. They'll laugh at you. Call Giant and tell them that thier $3000 mountain bike is overpriced, because you can get a Huffy at Wall Mart for $500. Both have wheels and a frame. Whats the differance, right?

OK, now if Specialised decides to offer thir high quality frames, totally stripped down of all components and the final bike costs $500 (naked), in order to offer a great frame for a lower price, thats one thig (and a good idea, right?). then you as the rider can decide what components you want to ad to the bike afterwards, according to your budget.

But to say all kayaks should cost the same is like saying all bikes, ski's, cars, jewlrey, should both cost the same, and be of similar qualities. BOORING!!!!

Variety is the spice of life. Just as one person always insists on buying only the best, so the next will buy as cheap as he can find. Some people always buy new, othres always buy used. But if there were ONLY used boats, that would suck for those that by new, and vice versa?

it always amazes me when kayakers feel like all kayaks should be homogonized. Same shape, same outiftting, same quality, and same price. Man, that would SUCK. But this thread leads one to believe thats exactly what you want.

Can;'t afford the Dagger? Then don't get it! But don't complain about thier price. Thats the price of thier boat. Take it or leave it. If you believe the boat is better than the WS, get it. If you believe its better, but not worth the price differance, then don;t get it. And if you believe its not better, and thereforre really not worth the price differeance, then don;t get it. But don;t ask Dagger to make thier boat, that THEY believe to be the best of course, to change thier price becuse \"lesser\" boats cost less.

Corran:dance:

corran wrote:
Dragorossi's ELITE outfitting is 1200 Euro. They are the best you can get. Also the most expensive. Daggers are a step down from that. Wave sport another step down. Etc etc... You buy what you can afford/feel is worth it.
[/quote]

So is that the way it goes? DR >>> Dagger >>> WS >>> ...
Is that because of performance? Quality? Service? Are all these criteria constant to everyone? Does ANYone here fully agree with that universal rating order?
Big companies spend fortunes on different polls to see what their brand positioning is like on the market. They check what should be done to strengthen the brand, whether it is over or under priced. Sounds familiar?
None of the posts above had anything to the account of Dagger being all that better then anything else. Actually if the consumer felt there is such a positive difference - he might have been willing to pay more. Here I agree with Corran - spend as much as you feel it is worth to YOU.
So, if people here complain - the brand positioning is probably not all that high & mighty... The consumers don't feel the difference between LL, WS, Dagger etc worth more money.
Then again - that is my personal opinion, correct me if I am wrong.
BTW - if my memory serves me right - DR started as the Ferrari of kayaking. Now there are cheaper models on the market... Nothing wrong, only shows that it is all about selling.
Bottom line - I think that the consumers should have the last word as to what is better, not the manufactures or retailers.

'Bottom line - I think that the consumers should have the last word as to what is better, not the manufactures or retailers.\"

Agreed.

but no matter how much a manufacturor WANTS to position themselves, sometimes there are other factors that do it for them.

For example, no matter how much Dragorossi might WANT to lower the price of the Elite outfitting, it simply CANNOT be done. No way. There is just no margin on the cost of all the parts to do it. So the price is the price, reguardless what someone may whant.

it hasn;t been an issue. DR has sold well in Europe as a whole. Better than expected in some areas, less than expected in others. But reguardless of what we might want to do with the price we couldn't. Acutally, if we made the same mar-up on DR kayaks as we did at Riot, they'd be somewhere near 1350 Euro!!! So in fact we DID market position - what is the market willing to pay for \"a better boat\".

What we found... they'll pay more. Not 50% more, but they will pay more. Some pople will. Some won't (either becuse they simply don;t have it, o because they really don;t want that much stuff in a kayak to begin with). So thats why we have come out with the performance system - for those who can;t afford the top level boat,. or who simply want a boat without all the bells and whistles (that everone is putting in nowdays).

That's the result of market studies

Corran

Being just a consumer of said products I feel it is my privilage to bitch whine moan all i like about what i think to be overcharging and a long patronizing reply on what you think i can afford was not what I'm looking for in a supplier coran.
It clear your company is repositioning to improve sales and fair play.
Hope that works out for you.
Affordability is not the question but what I'm prepared to pay is and I'm not prepared to pay 1200 euro for a hyped up tube of plastic.
For example I think the Pryanha Burn is a good design but the fittings are very poor. I would be prepared to pay 1000 euro for it but no more so I'm not buying it.
It really is that simple. Whats annoying is the fact that a lot of the companies mentioned can sell into other markets cheeper when that market will only support a lower price. Thats business though and business is there to make profit. I just think the market I reside in is being squeezed to hard and its time to start spending my hard earned dollars a bit more wisely.

No argument here.
Margines should be kept. Different boats and outfittings should be produced.
Sure.
But when a potential client states his opinion that he is not willing to pay more for the brand - it means that he is not given the extra value for the extra price.
There is a lesson to be leant, not to be knocked as some \"silly complaint\".
I for one deffinetely don't feel that Dagger has any additional value on WS for example. I think that WS outfitting is much better. BTW, I paddle a LL... would NOT trade for ANY of the above. After all, these preferences are personal and subjective.

I think KaitsuH's initial point was why boats that are both made in USA and cost example the same there, has a 30% difference in price when they are sold in Europe.

I wasn't trying to knowck the customer.

What I was saying is IF you don;t think a product is worth the money, don;t buy it. Buy one that you think IS worth the money. but to state, catagorically, that NO KAYAK should be over a certain price is this or that brand is , is silly.

Plenty of folks believe that DR are worth the money. Plenty do not. For those willing to pay more for more, the existance of Dragorossi meant that they finally could. For those not willing to pay more for more, there were 20 other brands to choose from. Nowe, DR wants a slice of that market too, and so we have the performance line.

But the fact still remains that a RANGE of prices/quality/styles is a good thing. If Dagger believes thier kayaks are worth 1300 Euro's then they believe they are. You might not. That is your perogative, and as such you don't buy thier product. if you do, you consider it. If you believe that the Dagger has nothing to offer over WS (which I incenenty agree with you on this), then you don;t get one. but someone else may disagree with you and me, and feel that the design/fittings of Dagger are worth the extra money. At least they have that choice.

Corran

What I think there is room for is a company that specializes in parts for retrofitting older kayaks with better thigh braces, back bands, and seats. Then when enough folks start upgrading their older boats od basically decent hull designs, you might see prices coming down.

Look at the american airplane market - don't see many of those \"sport airplanes\" being sold, as a Cessna 150 in decent shape, can still be upgraded with all the mods and a new engine for 1/2 of what most of those sport airplanes sell for. Reason why I own a 1964 C150 with 13 STC's and 337'ed modifications.

By the way - my newest whitewater boat? a Savage Skreem - Thanks Corran!