Ok guys (and girls), I'm planning on buying a new playboat within the next 3 or 4 months. I need some advice though.

Its going to be a bit of a long story, but I'd better cram everything I have to ask or already found out myself into one post, rather then having to make a new reply for every new question.

Ok, here goes:

First about me:
-A novice (maybe intermediate) paddler. I can get down grade 3 withouth any major problems. Allthough this whole running rivers is not really my thing. Whenever I get the chance to go on a little trip or weekend, I'll go park 'n playing. Most of my paddle time I spent on the ocean though, since we don't have any other big water in Holland. I do get on the occasional river though.
-In playboating I'm quite novice as well. I'm working on learning blunts now and I'm able to spin, but not much else. I dont get to spend a lot of time on holes either, so I don't master cartwheeling or loops yet. Allthough I'd really like to learn.
-I'm about 184cm and 104Kg (6.04feet and 230lbs) in my birthday suit. I'm losing weight though and going for 90kg (198lbs).
-At the moment I paddle a Pyranha S6F. The main reason I want to go to a new playboat is that I think they offer me more and easier accessible fun. The newer models are faster and bounce better. Besides that, the S6F feels really bulky on me.

What do I want:
-Since I'm gonna be on the ocean most of the time, I need a boat that works well there. So it's got to be fast (ofcourse this is relative, since playboats usually arent that fast) and bounce (I dont like surfing; as in surfkayaking).
-Whenever there are no waves I plan on playing around on flat water. Since I can't do sh*t on flat yet, it should be easy to learn in.
-Like I said, I'm no freestyle superstar. So a boat that's pretty forgiving would be nice. Also, I should be able to keep up with it when learning cartwheels. A loose hull would be really nice as well. Because, like I said, my trick repertoire isn't that big. So spinning is one of the things I like to do.
-A boat that actually feels right for my length and weight. The problem I have with the S6F is that it feels so bulky for me. I have loads of space left. However I need the volume to keep it afloat. When buying this boat 2 years ago, I also tried the S6F 192. That was a bit on the small size and the bow and stern would be ploughing through the water. Also tried the G-force6.3 back then. I fitted in perfectly, but it had too little volume. Front and stern would be above the water, but whenever I paddled on flat water the bow would start ploughing after a few strokes. I know I am on the heavy side for my length. So it's hard to find something thats feels right for my length and actually floats.

What options do I have:
We basically have 2 stores in Holland (at least that I know of) that sell freestyle kayaks. They sell the following playboats.
(alphabetical order)
-Dagger G-force 6.3 (too little volume untill I lose weight)
-Dagger Agent 6.4
-Fluid Flirt Large (or maybe medium?)
-Fluid Nemesis Large (or maybe medium?)
-Pyranha 420 M/L
-Jackson Superstar 6.5
-Liquid Logic Ronin 59
-Liquid Logic Vision 56
-Riot Astro 58
-Riot Flair 57
-Wave Sport Project 62
-Wave Sport ZG 54

What do I think:
I didnt paddle in any of the above mentioned boats (except the gforce6.3). Obviously, before buying any of them, I will try them out. But there is only so much you can get to know about a boat while testing it on flat water and your not able to do any tricks with it. My goal is however to make a short list of 4 boats based on your comments and try these out.

For all the above mentioned boats, according to the manufacturers sites, I'm on the upper weight limit or past it. Especially with my wet kayaking gear. The only exception to this are the Fluid boats. And the Flirt is actually the boat that seems the most interesting to me. I fall in the middle of the Large weight range. But when I actually lose the weight I'm planning to, I would be on the top end of the Medium weight range.
I heard great things about the Flirt. And according to what I heard and read, it should fulfill all my wishes. It's fast, bounces nicely and is pretty loose. At least in comparison to my S6F I have now. Besides that its also pretty forgiving and easy to wheel.
So, what would be the right size for me? Because the medium looks pretty big. And I dont want to have the same problem as I have now with my S6F. That it feels so big and bulky on me. The large flirt might be overkill for me. Especially when I do lose the weight. So any experts on this subject, please reply.

Well, thats basically it. Pfeww.
One more thing though. What would be a good price to sell my Pyranha S6F 193 for? It's the 2005 model in which they fixed the cockpit-ring-tearing problem.

Thanks

if you are comfortable in class III then you can stop calling your self a beginner (although it is very healthy to hang onto that beginner's open mind)

I'd suggest that you take a look at the DragoRossi Thruster. It is a park and play boat for you, that is desinged with a long surfing heritage (and it has a place for fins when you are in the ocean).

The Fluid Nemesis is worth a try too.

I don't think that you need to rush to get out of your Pyranha boat because many of the other boats you mentioned will be a bit shorter, thus easier to spin, but will not hold a carve on an ocean wave as well (so you will be sacrificing that)

Those are just my immediate thoughts. Good luck finding a boat. Getting a new one is very exciting.

Scott
DragoRossi USA importer

Ok, so I'm an intermediate
But I really can't do much playboating wise, except surfing, spinning and the occasional succesfull blunt attempt.

I looked at the thruster. I dont really like the quality of the dragorossi boats. A friend of mine owned a fish, and he constantly broke his thigh braces and after a while, his seat would start being a bit loose in the hull. He really liked the boat itself though.
Besides that, it's not available here In holland. So I guess it's not really an option for me. Thats why I summed up all playboats that are available here.

Btw, my S6F is 193 centimeters. The other boats aren't that much smaller. And its slow as hell

I'm sure your friend had the thigh wings that were red polycarbonate. Those did break. I just got a shipment of the new stuff here in the US and the new thigh wings are a bit more flexy and much stronger. On top of that I only imported the new performance seat which is rotomolded. Much simpler. Not as high peformance, but simpler.

All the boats you mentioned will surf, spin, things that you can already do. I'm sure you just won't want to give up some of the ocean surfing ability that you've gotten used to with the boat you have.

good luck with your search.

Scott

Hi Arson,

you're definitely not a beginner anymore

If you can squeeze yourself in it you should give my Flirt Medium a try this Sunday. As we're both reasonably of the same length that should not be a big problem, the hip pads can easily be removed.

I'll bring a few screwdrivers so we can adjust the seat and thigh braces if necessary but I don't think it will be.

BTW: forget about the Dagger G-Force 6.3. It does not have enough rear volume so it's not really stable when doing stern stalls (ie. it sinks). I should know .

CU on Sunday,

Michiel

The medium Fluid Flirt would probably be too small for you even at 90kg. It would be pretty edgy. You might have difficulty getting air in a boat too small for you. The large is large but even at 90 you'd style. Maybe wait for the Nemesis if it's a Fluid you want and playboating is your thing. I can't wait to try one.

Just try as many boats as possible and then you'll know what works for you and what doesn't. Have fun. Cheers

Perhaps I'm just plain stupid but how come the Nemesis with about 5 liters of volume would be more suitable than the Flirt Medium (200 vs 195 liters), whereas the Flirt Large has 220 liters of volume?

If the Flirt Medium really is way too small and you need the volume of the Large the Nemesis Medium won't cut it either...

Unless you're talking about the Nemesis Large, which is also 220 litres.

Just my 2 cents

I didn't mention anything about the sizes of the Nemesis. Where are you getting those specifications? I have not seen any...

I mentioned the Nemesis only because it is more playful but without the river running charateristics of the Flirt. Even though it says 220 litres for the large Flirt I don't know how accurate that is. I'm sure it is quite a bit more. I don't think the values given for volumes are very accurate for the many manufacturers. I know in windsurfers they can be out by as much as 10% and more.

Hi Adrian,

You're right, I was assuming you would be talking about the Nemesis medium because it would make sense to compare the Nemesis Medium to the Flirt Medium. Obviously the Large Nemesis will have more volume than the Medium Flirt

I found my information here: www.kanoshop.nl/kanoshop/index.html

Unfortunately I can't link directly to the page with Fluid kayaks but if you go to Kayaks, WW/Freestyle, Fluid, you'll find the first kayak there is the new Nemesis.

Cheers,

Michiel

Ok, so I'm still looking around
Narrowed the list down a bit.

Paddled a project 62, and it floats me. I have the space and it bounces like mad. But, it feels clunky with the enormous amount of volume in the front.
I must say, the project 52 looks a lot more evened out in comparison to the project 62. But hey, they have to leave all that volume somewhere
But I'd rather have a boat with a more evened out volume distribution which I can also use to run some rivers and wheel pretty balanced.

Tried the medium flirt as well. But it doesnt get much pop with me in it And the large, well, is quite large. Besides that, whenever I tried to bounce, it felt like the hull was being pressed inward. Felt a bit flimsy.

Tried a wavesport zg54. Likd it. Easy to throw around. Great fit. But same as with the medium flirt. It keeps me up. But with not much to spare. Still have to try it on some waves and I'm hoping I can do that this weekend. But I think it will be hard to go airborne.

Decided that the agent doesnt really do it for me either. Didnt read much good about it. Unless you can convince me otherwise.
Don't care much about the LL boats either.

Also paddled a Riot Astro 58. And I must say, I really love this boat. It floats me well, and its easy to get air. Decent speed. At least a lot faster then my S6F. So I am really thinking of buying this boat. Only concern is that it might not be so easy to throw around on flat water.

So I narrowed my list down to these:
1 - Riot Astro 58 : Paddled it and loved it. Just not too sure about flat water.

2 - Pyranha 420 : Didnt paddle it, but it seems good. Hope to be able to try it out somewhere in the next month.

3 - Jackson Superstar : Didnt paddle it. But it seems to be pretty good.

4 - Wavesport ZG 54 : Still have to try it on the waves. Will be a close-call volumewise.

So, any advice about these 4 boats from you would be nice. My preference at this time is with nr 1 or nr 2.