Hello, I am new to this forum and new to kayaking. I got a couple of questions. I am looking for an all round boat to do some river running and play boating. Currently I have an opportunity to try out a diesel 75 and Jackson super fun. What are some thing I should look for or try when I am trying out the boat?

Also which one would you guys recommend to a newbie for both of my boating styles? BTW I am located in MD if that helps.

Also, I tried both boats. Both of them fit well, there is more room in the jackson, but the diesel worked well too. Currently I weight 245, which I know is over the diesel weight limit. But I do plan on being 200 by December and hopefully under 200 by next year. This weight loss is not an option, got to look good in a tux when I get married next yr=)

Thanks!

I would go for Jackson they are reliable good kayaks. I have been paddling a fun for about a year and a half nopw and apart from a numbness problem i love it. It surfs and plays well in a wave and is really comfy for river running. Everyone I know paddles them and everyone i've met have recommended them to me and if you ever have problems the jackson team are on hand to help in whatever way they can! I know you may need a boat at the moment but would you not be better off waiting till nex year to buy one if you plan to lose alot of weight than your kayak wont be the right size for you next year. If i was you id wait untill i reached my goal weight and then get one.
Just my 2 cents


Sarah

I have a few things to say:

First, the Diesel is more of a river running creek boat, but the Fun is more of a river running playboat. There is almost no chance of you learning to playboat in a boat like the Diesel. there have been a few people who have managed to do loops, but the Fun would be much easier to learn in. Wave Sport is supposed to be coming out with a Diesel 60, 70, and 80 next year, so you might want to wait for the Diesel 80 to come out. Also, check out the Wave Sport Fuse 64 if you want to get a wave sport. The Fluid Spice L would probably also suit your needs well, but it might be a bit long for loops.
wavesport.com/fuse-64
fluidkayaks.co.za/Whitewater_L-Spice.htm

I really like putting beginners in Jackson Fun's. The are easy to roll, run rivers well and play all day. They take you from beginner to expert. It is the boat I use the most. It is also super durable and comfortable. When you are looking for a second boat to add to your fleet look at something like a Diesel, Mamba, Remix, Burn or Hero (a big river-runner that has the potential to creek or comfortably do an overnight trip). I think people who start with these big boats either get bored or in over their heads too quickly. If you fit in the 4 Fun it will work fine at your current weight and get better as you loose weight. The two boats that you have mentioned are sitting downstairs in my garage. My club bought 2007 Funs and we have had great success with them as river-running playboats for all levels of paddler. I agree that a Fuse would be another option. Give them both a try.

thanks for all the responses. I am going to be testing out both boats today in flat water. Is there anything you guys recommend I should look out for?

Thanks again!

Just make sure you are comfortable for long periods of time in each, and if you have a solid roll, try to roll each. Also, Wave Sport is going to make the Diesels faster next year. Check manueverability, primary stability(boat staying flat on water), and secondary stability(once not stable, how easily it will roll). Also, make sure that you don't feel a pulled tendon in the thigh, since this can be common in poorly-fitting boats. Check adjustability of the foot braces, thigh braces, hip pads, seat, backband, etc.

I just spent some time in both of the kayaks. The sf feels a lot more stabe then the 75. In the 75 I kept doing 180. Where as in the sf I could go a good distance before I did a 180. The 75 felt like it could roll anytime. As for comfort, both of them felt good but I can get in and out of the sf much more easier then the 75. Looks like the sf has my vote.

doing a 180 is not a bad thing; that shows that the Diesel is more manueverable. You should be able to use correctional strokes to go in a straight line. If you think that the Diesel will roll easier, that should mean that it has better secondary stability and it will be more manueverable in whitewater. If you like the Superfun, then get that.

As others have pointed out, these are two completely different boats. If the only options you have are these two, you just need to know whether you're going big river running or playboating.

I would say that at 245 and dropping I would send you to a 4fun... you are at the high end for the weight but not too bad... I paddled a 4 fun at 240 and it was just fine, atually still more stable than my project 62...

If you want to learn to playboat get the 4fun...it will handle anything that the river will throw at you, they handle really well and roll easy... If your looking for something with more volume then maybe look at the diesel or super hero

My theory on it is I would rather have a fun boat that i can go run rivers and play my way down. Then when the creeks fill up, get into a ful on creek boat

Well as some people say here in Ireland:


"Go Big Or Go Home"

I Say:

Screw them I'm going playboating!

Ultimately, it comes down to what you've already said...if you feel more stable and comfortable in the Fun, then you've answered your question. If you aren't very comfortable or secure feeling in your boat, then in a less than desirable situation, you'll find you end up panicking moreso than if you'd been in a boat your mind liked as much as your body! Trust your gut With that being said, I'd have to say that I think you're making the right choice with the Fun--it seems to suit your needs better, and I'm awfully partial to my own Fun! With no pun intended--have fun out there!

thanks for all the wonderful response. Your input has been very helpful. currently I am still trying out different boats. I just tried the habitat 75 this weekend and I will be bringing the Jackson SF to the Potomac and testing it out in the river.

As for the 4 fum, I believe the one my friend has is an older model, so I don't really fit in it, but I will try to give it a shot too.

If I can get my hands on the fuse or fluid. I will try those out too. I am definitely into play boating and not creeking, so I am probably leaning towards a playboat river runner hybrid.

Another question is where would you recommend to go learn how to roll? Anyone in the MD area?

Thanks

According to fluid's website, Upper Yough Outfitters carries Fluid Kayaks. Here is their phone number: 443-801-3310 . Also, you may want to check out Appomattox River Company ( paddleva.com/ ). They have one of the best selections of kayaks, and would probably be a great place to check out. According to their website, they have over 2,500 kayaks and canoes in their Farmville, Va store. here is a list of the brands that they carry paddleva.com/brands.htm .

Forget the Flirt...the high sidewalls make a bitch to learn to roll. If you go with a Jackson get a 2007 or newer model. Easy to roll, plays well and river-runs well (the kayak schools I've seen and many clubs in my area have gone with the Funs because the are so versatile, forgiving and durable). Or look at something older like a Wavesport Super EZ or Pyrahna Sub 8. Liquid Logics CR250 also comes to mind. Try as many as you can. Local clubs often have fleets of boats to rent members and this is a great idea in you first season. As for learning to roll there is no place like a pool. Check out your local clubs and or instructors.

ok I was able to sit in a 4fun yesterday and it is a MUCH better fit. I feel very snug and my legs are perfect, where in the SF there was so much room and I never used my legs. I can't wait to take the 4fun out on the potomac for a test paddle. My weight is 240 now and decreasing so looks like I will be in the weight range.

Thanks for all the comments, you guys have been VERY helpful

Although according to Jk 240 is heavy in the 4 fun... I didnt think so, maybe because I paddle a P62 and by comparison it is most definately a river runing playboat... still plays really well though just requres more technique for double pumping and flatwheels etc

I think you'll like it

any recommendations for paddles?

I am looking at the werner sharpa and AT AT 4 paddles

I would look at the Werner Player or something similar with down-turned blades. The Sherpa is designed for river running and creeking. Here is a direct quote from Werner's site about down turned blades: "Down turned blades enter the water sooner for more initial power & won't trip up on your boat".

Im a wood kinda guy

might want to check out wavedog paddles

www.wavedogpaddles.com

I sold my AT last year once I started to paddle these

looks like I am picking up a Warner Sherpa. Someone is selling a slightly used one for 120. Think that is a pretty good deal. I wanted a mix od play boating and river running and it seems that the sherpa can do that....hopefully..

Well personaly i wouldn't pick either for river play. I own the diesel 75 and wall its a great river runner it has very little to no playability.I don't suggest buying a boat with a lower weight limit with the plan on losing weight because theres no garentee that you can or will. I would go with the jackson 4 fun because you'll be able to run pretty well but more importently play in it.

Very interesting thread. I'm 250lbs+ (how much I don't want to acknowledge to myself) and looking for a new WW boat I can use in a fairly tame river, but also in the ocean for some plastic play (though I do have surf-specific craft, it is sometimes fun to play in the shore break in a boat you don't have to worry too much about breaking, and more especially on days when shore break is all there is). Trouble is, I live in Japan where it is impossible to demo big boy boats because the average Japanese is much smaller. I have been leaning toward the Super Fun, but remember surfing in the soup in my Cyclone and having the boat just sink beneath me--there was just so little volume there. So I wonder if the SF would have enough volume in the stern to keep me floating. Also wonder how flat water paddling with it would be as a heavy-weight. My other WW boats have been a WS Z and an InaZone 240, both of which more or less gave up on me for ocean fun at my new weight.

So, anyone LARGE try the SF in the ocean? How's it's speed on flat water and for taking off in the ocean?

The Super Hero has also been recommended to me, but can you really use such a heavy boat to play in the ocean? Would it be overkill on a tame river?

Thanks so much for any information.

Stiletto, have you thought about the large Fluid Spice?
www.fluidkayaks.co.za/Whitewater_L-Spice.htm

The website says the range is up to 240 lbs but I think that's a little conservative. I paddle the medium and at 187 lbs (with no gear) I battle to flat water cartwheel it. And it's not that I can't cartwheel... I have a medium Nemesis which I can throw around with ease.

I paddled the large Spice once and I felt like a little kid inside of it. It floated very high and I have no doubt that it needed a far larger paddler to get anything out of it. There was also loads of room and I am 6'. I'm sure it would be a good option for someone such as yourself, if of course, it is available to you. Although the volume of a kayak can give you some indication of how it might perform, where that volume is situated makes a far bigger difference.. Good luck.

Yes, the large Spice was one boat I was seriously interested in, but wary of because the 2 boats I had before it were of similar volume, though longer. I agree that the volume distribution is way different and even wrote to the owner of Fluid, who was more than kind and informative in answering my questions about the boat. He also mentioned the boat can float larger paddlers than what's posted on the site, but as I can't demo here in northern Japan (island of Hokkaido), it's real difficult making a choice. I suggested an XL Spice, but that doesn't seem like it's going to make it into reality, though it seems another boat, a yet unannounced model of quite different profile, is in the works. Yeah, the L Spice looks just like what I want...Anybody approaching 265 ever paddle the boat without a hitch, without plowing through the water? This is not my ideal "fighting" weight, but I've been more or less laid up with a shoulder injury since the winter, and am now recuperating from shoulder resection surgery, during which the surgeon just happened to notice my rotator cuff was almost completely torn off. Won't be able to paddle till February at the earliest, nor do heavy workouts, so it seems the pounds just keep coming...

Hopefully somebody will be able to reply to you soon. A mate of mine weighs about 215 lbs and is super happy in the large. But as you say, you're a few pounds heavier. Yes, the new boat is in the making and the large should be quite big but that's all I can say now. It should be pretty cool. It's such a bummer you can't demo anything up there.

Sorry to hear about your shoulder injury! I've also just gone through some surgery and am on the mend nicely now:
www.fluid-junction.com/blog/index.php/po.../Back-onto-the-Horse

Take it easy and don't forget to do the exercises as often as possible. My doctor said I'd only be able (and allowed) to paddle by around December if all went well but with hard work and determination I found myself back on the river on the second last day of August this year. The op was on 19 May 2008. Keep the faith....and don't stop training/stretching!

hey the super fun will be perfect for you. when I first started kayaking i used the 2007 super fun and it was HUGE even with me at 250. Now I never played in the boat at 250, but there is plenty of volume in it.

Good info. What can you tell me about how the boat paddles at your weight? Does it still sit high enough in the water or does it plow on flat water? Do you think it could get up enough speed for take-offs on ocean waves? Never paddled a boat that short before and have concerns about speed for the ocean especially. Any other feedback appreciated in advance.

Just thought you might be interested, from the Fluid site:

"Another exciting addition to our distribution network is AOKI Canoe Works in Japan. They are our new Japanese distributors and just ordered their first container."

Cheers,
Adrian