Hey Folks

I want to buy a new playboat and have been looking on different models of different companies, so far I've been looking at: Jacksonkayak Allstar, Wavesport ZG, Project 54, Liquidelogic CR 80, Ronin 54, Riot Astro 54 and Fluid Nemisis, Flirt

I could only find crappy reviews in the boat database, sorry folks but I don't want to read a review written by a beginner, so I gonna try my luck....

About myself: I've been paddeling for about 12 years now and have a lot of experience in creeking as well as in playboating. I'm 185 cm tall, 75 kg, and shoe size 11..

What type of boat am I looking for ?

I look for a boat that is at least 190 cm long, I prefer long boats, it should have a quiet balanced bow and stern, I can't stand those big rockers and short stern designs (neg. example Dagger Crazy 88) and a really big foot space, cause I got quiet big feet.
I'm looking for a quiet stable boat with aggressive edges, enough rocker to go big in big waves and clean cartwheel series in holes as well.
So far I've been paddeling the ZG at the Skookumchuch Tidal Wave and enjoyed the boat. I run class 4+ high volume rivers as well, which means I need a quiet durable plastic, something Wavesport doesn't really supply.
My last Playboat was a good old Prijon Delirious and I still enjoy the boat I just look for something more aggressive.
Whoever paddles those listed boats feel free to give me your impression and opinion on them, and I mean real paddling not this I can perform one Flatwatercartwheel,I'm a beginner stuff...

Cheers for your help folks and keep on rocking
badewanne

I am 178 cm long and i fit barely in Project 52. There aren't any free space available.. I think thats too small for you and 62 is too big beacuse you are so lightweight.
I've thinked allstar beacuse bigger foot space, but i dont know about you. You must test it.
I guess that ZG fits you best.

I can shed some light on the Project on Riots (as I've had more experience with them)

Well I don't know if I fit in your catagory of "beginner" but paddling in the project for a summer, taking it down class 3, and a couple 4s, and using it in a hole, wave, and on flatwater, I can tell you that if it fit you, you'd like it. However, the plastic, (although softer and weight saving) already has a lot of scratches and a couple gauges in it. My leg inseam is 32" and my shoe size is 9.5 and my feet are crammed. I've got a little bony spur on one of my toes from when I was first paddling this boat.

However, If you do fit comfortably, the outfitting is better than any other boat I've paddled, (dagger, JK, and much much better than riot). The stern is better balanced than the riots, and is more predictable. The bow is tougher to balance on than a riot or dagger, but the edge transition is smoother. the project has been good for me downriver, doesn't track that great, but is stable and predictable in the pushy stuff.

I haven't had many positive experiences in riots when I compare them to the other boats I've paddled. Every person I know that paddles them (their outfitting has fallen apart or been uncomfortable) and although they have a harder plastic than WS and dagger, they oilcan pretty easy.

Liquid logic has good plastic and great outfitting, predictable stability and edge transition/control. Same with fluid here.

I tried to focus on the negatives for ya, I hope that was some help

thanks both of you...

Sounds like what I've found on other pages... I always found the Riot Outfitting quiet good, maybe they changed it in the last couple of years.. haven't been paddeling a Riot for a couple of years...
The Wavesport Project caught my eye apart from the plastic.... I've seen to many Habitats broken to trust them really.
Does anybody has closer info's on the Liquidelogics? I own a Jefe Grande so I know about the plastic and outfitting, but I never paddled a playboat of them, can somebody tell me something about the shape?
When you look on the homepage you only find the CR and the new Playboat thats coming out 09 aren't they producing the ronins anymore?

Cheers so far, any infos on the Allstars I heard the plastic is pretty shitty, tue?

I found the allstar more responsive than my old Ronin, friends Project. No complaints with the plastic the boat performs well on all sized features cartwheels, splits effortlesly, landed big loops especially with the happy thruster combo fitted. Alos found the outfitting very comfortable easy to fine tune also a very dry ride.

if you like the riot outfitting than that's good! I know that with that outfitting system definitely that if you don't fit well in it your gonna hate it. for me having long legs, it's not comfortable at all, I'd have to do a lot of custom work to it for me. It's not for everyone.

I'm friends with the riot dealer though and He loves riot through and through he basically says that the boat is good, but once they fix the outfitting then the company will take off. He's broken just about every part of the outfitting system; seat, bolts, hip pad supports, back bands, etc. Most common is that the seat will break and slide from side to side in the boat, but that's fixable by getting a good glue, (gorilla glue i think is what it's called) and putting foam blocks on the inside on either side of the seat between the hip pad joint and the hull of the boat.

Jackson kayak have a good strong plastic. However they have had their defects, but if you get a defective boat than your dealer should be happy to replace it. My buddy had a huge crack develop on the rim of the cockpit, and my other buddy actually cracked the bottom of his JK on the hull. The crack is about 8 inches long!!!! so maybe not the best but still better than WS and DAGGER

Just a quick one, I'm not a beginner kayaker, but I'm not really advanced at playboating.

The outfitting in the jackson is very soft and comfortable. Some people like the happy feet, some don't. I do like them, but sometimes they can slip a little, which can be a little annoying, but sometimes they don't.

I'm similar size to you (78kg, 180soemthingcm tall, size 12feet). There's plenty of room in the all star for someone your size. I temporarily moved my seat too far forward (its unbalanced - too much weight in the bow) and I'm still comfortable. When I move the seat back a bit to make it more balanced, I have even more room. (note - I don't wear any shoes etc. though, I've never tried with any on...so if you wear largish shoes or something when you paddle then take this into consideration.)

On waves the all-star seems quite fast and turns well on edge. I'm having some fun in the all-star in holes, and it seems well behaved and easy to control compared to my old disco. This is really just when surfing and spinning though, as I'm still learning most of the tricks!

Hm cheers so far.

Has anybody any experience with fluid kayaks or Liquidelogic Playboats?

Thanks

Mate,

Here's some of my opinions for your consideration - I guess not everyone is going to agree with me. For reference Im 182cm tall, 85 - 90kg and have size US 10 feet. I'm not really sure of my inseam but I think I have legs on the shorter side of things. As for experience I have been paddling for a while and mostly get out in the playboat, I can do most tricks on a wave and can do hole moves but it doesn't really get me going if you know what I mean.

My BIG RECOMMENDATION goes to the Dragorossi Fish, I know its not on your list but I really think you should try it out or consider it. It's longer than a usual playboat, 6'6 I believe, and incredably fast on edge. Its a different beast for sure as its a little slower when flat allowing you to slow things down and set up. It airs explosively if you use an edge transition (most people I know use this technique rather than flat bouncing). It realeases from the water easily and would suit your weight superbly. I forgot to mention this thing is rediculous when performing backwards moves, it can;t help being in the air, it is also the easiest boat I have been in to flip turn and helix and probably clean blunts better than blunts.

Its balanced in a hole as well with the cockpit being central to the boats volume, it's very balanced and stable. It's does loop and will probably be better for you being lighter but due to the pointy bow it does take attention to keep things straight. Its a very good river runner as well, and is a really stable platform to get down to the playspots in.

As for outfitting, get the Testerossa seat and pad it out, no moving parts and very supportive. It also gives you a lift to get better leverage on your moves. I use a seatbelt but did like the thing wings if your considering. The plastic is probably the best I have come across (other than prijion and eskimo) and with the hull support mine has yet to deform and its flown here there and everywhere. Bottom line its a killer playboat if it works for you and you cand rive it.

Other boats:

Nemisis - great on a wave, releases well for moves not as fast. I haven't seen anyone else mention this and I assume its not a problem but the boats I have seen have been been warped at the bow (I assume its a mold issue as they are all the same) and the outfitting is HEAVY, it's probably the heaviest playboat I have lifted. Its great on the water though.

AllStar - Don't like the squishy outfitting, I find its comfortable but cheesy and has lots of flex in the system. It is light and very dry though. I call it a BLAH boat, in that it does most things but there is no pizzazz, no feeling of wow! It just goes through the motions. I also don;t like the bounce bounce bounce bounce feeling on a wave it gave me, I could always feel it slightly bouncing. Great for moves but for just surfing around kinda annoying. Again it does everything well, just didn't do it for me.

Astro - I really liked this boat, it seems fast ( not sure if it is though), and is very easy to go from edge to edge. Was stable river running and insipred confidence. I don't like the unity seat, but would only ever get a power seat - same reasons as the testerossa seat. The hull does seem not very well supported but the plastic seemed great. It would be a very good boat to learn or consolidate your moves in, or even be able to invent if your that good. Thats just the feeling i got from it.

The other boats you might want to look at are the RAD series, however I'm not sure if you would be keen as they aren't particually long or balanced due to a low volume stern and high volume bow, kinda like the VIBE. Also consider a Riot Turbo, seems like it would also suit your needs, its a fantastic boat as well. Little skitish running rivers but on a wave its a killer.

Hope this goes someway to helping, have a look at the FISH as it really is a great boat and from what you describe it would certainly fit the bill.

Don

oye mate

cheers for the good reviews on all the boats.

Yeah I've been looking on the Fish for a really long time and its kinda my dream playboat, it is really expensive as well
and thats basicly the reason why I haven't bought one.

I heard the same storys about the Riot Seatsystem especially the backrest is a real pain in the ass.
I never heard of the Nemisis as a "heavy" playboat, the only problem would be to order one in Canada....
I took the Riot Astro out of my selection cause it is designed for big waves and I don't have necessarily those features present.. I don't live close to Skooks or The Frog.
I looked on the Turbo for a long time, again the crappy outfitting kept me from buying one.

I already paddled a RAD and I don't like the boat, the outfittings are good but its way too wide and bulky designed, too much Volume in the Bow and too less in the Stern, simply a radical wave boat.

So far it looks like nobody experienced liquidelogic playboats I would like to get an opinion on those.

cheers boys keep on charging

You might want to demo the Bliss-Stick Smoothy, if you like the Bliss-Sticks. Here is a comparison of it to the RAD 185, so you can see the difference in size: playak.com/kayaks.php?id2=108&id=1421 . Another boat to consider would be the Bliss-Stick Flip Stick, since it has slightly lower volume ends and is a bit longer than the RAD 185 (4 in.). The Fluid Nemesis Medium is 32 lbs, and for comparison, the Dragorossi Fish is 30 lbs. There are 13 Fluid dealers in Canada, according to Fluid's website, but your location on the map says that you are in Germany, so I couldn't figure out which is the closest. fluidkayaks.co.za/Dealers_NorthAmerica.htm . There are some Playak reviews for some LL boats, so just run a search and see what you can find. here is a comparison of the Ronin 49 and the CR 125 (no reviews on the Ronin 59) playak.com/kayaks.php?id=368&id2=318 .

Yeah I read those reviews about the Liquidelogics, I was just looking for a closer look on it than those reviews show.
I just have to test one I gues.
The smoothy looks kinda the Astro, flat bottom and rising bow and sterns. Is it already for sale or still in production?
Yeah my location is in Germany but I'm living currently in Canada for Work, its way easier to get a Bliss Stick over here.

Cheers everybody sounds like I have to start testing by now.

Oh did you buy your Fish in Australia, cause it seems like Dragorossi doesn't have any oversea dealers?

One problem for you with the Fish will be finding it, because there are no dealers in the US, according to Dragorossi's website. They still have NRS listed as a distributor, so you might want to call/email them. They have great response time on emails, so you shouldn't have to wait too long for an answer. Also, try messaging Corran Addison (Corran) since he works with/for Dragorossi.

I already emailed Dragorossi they have a Dealer located in Seattle which is a 3 hour drive away. Otherwise I can get it shipped to my home adress in Europe, I should get it soon.

Cheers for the advice guys


see you on the river

There's a Drago Rossi Dealer Idaho too.. Coeur D'Alene I think.

Thought I should chime in to clarify the DragoRossi situation. Lost of memories from four years ago which need to be forgotten since things are so much different now.

The boats are WAY less expensive than they used to be!!!

I imported some of the boats a year and half ago. I have a Mafia, Squashtail, and Stinger left in stock which I'm not too worried about selling. Probably could be convinced to let go of any one of these for about $700

NRS may or may not have a Fish left. It's worth a call.

The main dealer/importer right now is Tony Zanetti of www.DonkeyFlip.com
he has an electronic shop set up at this address
stores.ebay.com/East-Fork-Outfitters_W0QQssPageNameZl2QQtZkm
it might be interesting to note the free shipping on this page with the Fish
cgi.ebay.com/DragoRossi-Fish-Kayak-Playb...sidZp1742.m153.l1262


Also, DragoRossi's main websites are scheduled for redesigns soon, so it's worth paying attention and checking back sometime after the new year at both
www.dragorossi.com
www.dragorossi.net

and there is always a variety of info at my own websites
www.100waves.com
www.TOTALwhitewaterFUN.blogspot.com
www.ARTandWATER.com

have you tried that dagger Agent?
Pretty spacey and quite stable so good for what you'd like to do
Nice on a wave also

hey

yeah I tried the Dagger Agent. It is not a bad boat, the only problem I got with dagger is that they are owned by the same cooperation as Wavesport, which basically means that they use the same plastic and I really don't like the Wavesport Plastic, and I never became a fan of the Dagger Seatsystem. Too many straps and things that can break`


cheers

The Smoothy is in production and available in the states.
The US warehouse is in the Seattle area and I have a few Smoothies in stock.
As of yet there aren't any in western Canada to demo, but if you drop down, you are welcome to take mine for a spin.
Cheers.

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